Trans women and single-sex spaces

I think there is a difference between intact males and surgically 'transitioned' ones. Yes, both are male, but the one who has undergone surgery is (a) obviously committed to the cause, and (b) much less likely to be a risk to women.

We can't assume that.
It's been proven that castration isn't a cure for sexual offending because the motivation is aggression towards (usually) females.

Obviously most transwomen aren't sexual offenders but neither are most men.
Transwomen can't be considered safer than other men.

That's a good point about the categories Betony. Are they really so wide that those boxers were considered evenly matched?

Apparently the Algerian was born female, but has XY chromosomes, internal testes, and no uterus.
Imane Khelif may have appeared to be female at birth but clearly was not. He's a male with a DSD - difference or diversity of sexual development.

Sadly true Doodledog.

I’d say it was a sex issue, not a gender one. A man wanted to show he could dominate a woman- even though she was best in her class. The boxer may have been in it for the money (goodness knows there would be no glory in it) but that is exactly what the trans ‘movement’ wants. Women to get back in line.

Taking a slightly different tack on the subject of men in women’s spaces, I’m still haunted by the way a physically weaker woman was treated at the Paris Olympics a couple of years ago. Right from first sight we could see that the Algerian and Italian women's boxing contestants were incompatible.

The Algerian was tall, big and powerful, and made their Italian opponent look diminutive in comparison.Apparently the Algerian was born female, but has XY chromosomes, internal testes, and no uterus. Surely this in itself is questionable in a women’s event?

Also, I thought boxing categories pitched contestants fairly against each other by size and weight, such as bantam weight, light weight, heavy weight, etc.What happened here? Were categories just ignored?

I was watching the match with friends, and we all thought it must be a joke! The Algerian was so much bigger and more powerful than the Italian, we all gave a sigh of relief when the Italian woman withdrew from the competition.

Question: plain evidence of contestant incompatibility was there for the world to see. Why didn't those setting up the match use some common sense? The Italian contestant did, and probably saved herself bad injury, but everyone else involved in this ‘carry-on’ remained in what I call 'Emperor's New Clothes' mode, and the debatable ‘winner’ was carried away shoulder high. Was this a gender issue? Or simply a dubious mismatch in the name of gender equality/inclusivity? Both probably, and should never have happened, least of all in an Olympic event for the world to see.

I guess that there will be similar tests for biological male categories no I don't think there are plans for the male categories. A female, not even on testosterone which would be a drug offence, is no competition for an elite male so very unlikely to get within a mile of an olympic event. There are tables out there that show that women's world records in every event are surpassed by schoolboys, not elite athletes, every single year.

PoliticsNerd

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

Where can I find confirmation about this influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish? I, and I would guess, many others, think this is all in the heads of middle-age and elderly women on internet forums, etc.

That doesn't mean calling changing spaces unisex or whatever is a bad thing - perhaps it will finally stop the hysteria.

transcrimeuk.com/2017/12/16/transgender-individuals-who-have-killed-attempted-to-kill-others-in-the-uk/

Great news .

NanKate

I have just read that only biological females will be allowed to compete in the Olympics 2028. Excellent, this is called fairness.

Yes, I heard that on the car radio earlier. I am exceptionally happy with this decision 👏👏👏

There will be a mandatory once in a lifetime test to ensure they are biologically female.

I guess that there will be similar tests for biological male categories

I have just read that only biological females will be allowed to compete in the Olympics 2028. Excellent, this is called fairness.

I’ll be following the idea of sisterhood groups with interest. Will the TW be happy with those?
Will all the women who wanted to include males in their group flock of the sisterhood groups?

Will there still be complaints like those I’ve read on GN, that the TW take over and want to run things their way?

By the very name, it seems they’re determined to imply that TW are not male, despite the fact that,
A sister is a female sibling who shares one or both parents with another individual, or a woman with a similar background or affiliation. Usage includes familial relationships ("my older sister"), religious nuns, senior nurses in Britain, sorority members, or close female friends.

Thank you Doodledog for mentioning the WI which from April Fools Day (how apt) is no longer allowing transwomen to be members.

The head of WI Melissa Green sent every member a ‘mealy mouthed’ not my words but I agree, apology to transwomen for being forced to ask them to leave the WI. The members were not given a free vote on accepting transwomen and those of us who have stood up for biological women have been harassed and treated imo badly.

Melissa is starting up a Sisterhood Groups to include transwomen. I will be asking her who will be funding these new groups. I will no doubt be receiving an unhelpful reply as usual. I am seen as a troublemaker but nothing will stop me from protesting.

NittWitt

A friend who manages a community hall says that cubicles with handwashing inside are only practical if there are going to be small numbers of people using them, or there is an increase in the number of cubicles, and extra allowed as replacements for urinals, because the handwashing takes extra time before the next person can get into the cubicle.

I expect many men will helpfully save time by not washing their hands, tho.

But men will queue longer and women shorter. There's equality right there, ever stood queuing for the loo in a theatre thinking your going to be late back to your seat while men just wander in and out of the gents. So annoying.

A friend who manages a community hall says that cubicles with handwashing inside are only practical if there are going to be small numbers of people using them, or there is an increase in the number of cubicles, and extra allowed as replacements for urinals, because the handwashing takes extra time before the next person can get into the cubicle.

I expect many men will helpfully save time by not washing their hands, tho.

NittWitt

^I think there is a difference between intact males and surgically 'transitioned' ones. Yes, both are male, but the one who has undergone surgery is (a) obviously committed to the cause, and (b) much less likely to be a risk to women.^

We have no idea which is which.
It's not up to women to try to assess how dangerous a man might be. He shouldn't be in a 'single-sex' place.

One place you didn't mention Doodledog is prisons.
A majority of women prisoners have suffered male violence and it's plain cruelty to lock men in with them, however harmless those men might be thought to be.
The women are traumatised by being locked in with men who may turn out to be dangerous to them.

Yes that’s true about prisons and also DV hostels, Girl Guide camps and so on.

Not to mention the WI and other groups for women and girls - if men can gatecrash them by saying they are women, women have nowhere to go without men being there.

Dont worry ViceVersa my arthritis and me not checking is the fault not you.

Nearly did it again and got a Do t worry. I wonder why it is n that gets missed?

theworriedwell

I meant arent in the cubicles. My arthritis and using a smart phone can be a nightmare. I mean a big open area for hand washing is a waste of space. No need to use much if any space in the cubicle, you can get the basin built into the top of the cistern.

Ahh, I'm seeing what you mean now. Apologies for misunderstanding.

As well as prisons there are refuges, it always gets brought back to toilets because I think that is an easier place to justify men being in a female spaces.

My is t a problem back in that post missed the n so isn't became is t.

I meant arent in the cubicles. My arthritis and using a smart phone can be a nightmare. I mean a big open area for hand washing is a waste of space. No need to use much if any space in the cubicle, you can get the basin built into the top of the cistern.

theworriedwell

ViceVersa

I think the situation that Quercus is referring is where there are individual toilet cubicles, but the handwashing area is communal. So you would do your 'business' in the cubicle, but could then find yourself washing your hands next to someone of the opposite sex.

Yes but that's bad planning, put a washhand basin in the cubicle.

I'd rather be washing my hands next s man than next to a woman washing out her mooncup.

We are in the 21st century so let's have some decent toilets although in lots of places public toilets seem to be closing so I suppose we are supposed to be grateful.

But in your previous post, you said "If the washing facilities are in the cubicles there is t s problem. It's a poor use of space that could be used to provide more actusl toilets."

ViceVersa

I think the situation that Quercus is referring is where there are individual toilet cubicles, but the handwashing area is communal. So you would do your 'business' in the cubicle, but could then find yourself washing your hands next to someone of the opposite sex.

Yes but that's bad planning, put a washhand basin in the cubicle.

I'd rather be washing my hands next s man than next to a woman washing out her mooncup.

We are in the 21st century so let's have some decent toilets although in lots of places public toilets seem to be closing so I suppose we are supposed to be grateful.

I think there is a difference between intact males and surgically 'transitioned' ones. Yes, both are male, but the one who has undergone surgery is (a) obviously committed to the cause, and (b) much less likely to be a risk to women.

We have no idea which is which.
It's not up to women to try to assess how dangerous a man might be. He shouldn't be in a 'single-sex' place.

One place you didn't mention Doodledog is prisons.
A majority of women prisoners have suffered male violence and it's plain cruelty to lock men in with them, however harmless those men might be thought to be.
The women are traumatised by being locked in with men who may turn out to be dangerous to them.

I think the situation that Quercus is referring is where there are individual toilet cubicles, but the handwashing area is communal. So you would do your 'business' in the cubicle, but could then find yourself washing your hands next to someone of the opposite sex.

eazybee

Sharing the wash basin area with the opposite sex presents the exact problems that initiated Sandie Peggie's complaint; a man pretending to a woman insisting on staying and watching her while she attempted intimate washing.
Sounds as though the academics are imposing their ideology.

If the washing facilities are in the cubicles there is t s problem. It's a poor use of space that could be used to provide more actusl toilets.