Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

At the last census there were 262,000 transpeople 0.5% of the population of UK. I doubt that every toilet will be adjusted to suit this tiny minority.

AGAA4

At the last census there were 262,000 transpeople 0.5% of the population of UK. I doubt that every toilet will be adjusted to suit this tiny minority.

Agreed, and it would be an over-reaction. But Carla Denyer did say that there would be an obligation to do so. Obviously that doesn't make it true, and I can't see anything in the ruling that suggests that it is, but her comments were not contested.

The problem (or one of them ) is that because of the nonsensical 'gender' questions on things like the census, the figure of 0.5% is meaningless. Is that people with a GRC? Surgically transitioned people (I doubt the figure for that would be as high as 1 in 200) or people having 'girly days', or 'living as a woman' (whatever that means), or what exactly? This sort of thing is exactly why I worry about the way the language has been mangled so that nobody knows what anyone else is talking about. Statistics based on vagaries can be twisted to mean anything.

Even so, I don't think there can be a ruling that all buildings have to build more toilets. If the law said that I had to add to the bathrooms in my house, I would have to sacrifice a bedroom to do so. If the house were a B&B, I would probably have to close, as I might not be able to rent enough rooms to make a profit, particularly after the expense of having it done.

Similarly if a cafe had to lose tables to accommodate three separate loos instead of the one they have now, many would go under. Also, places like that are often in historic buildings where planning permission would be hard to get if it meant changing the layout.

There needs to be a way that TW can use the Gents without shame or fear. I think this is very possible but it will take time to change attitudes. In the meantime, a sensible solution needs to be found.

This is where the sheer practicality comes in, doesnt it? A headache for guidance coming up in terms of recommending versus compelling.And then the much more complex what happens in hospitals guidance.

Apropos delays in any government taking on these issues - I recall watching out closely at the last election as to whether these issues would be addressed in any kind of depth. Read manifestos, watched the "head to heads"

It wasn't.

And with the best will in the world, I think the complexity and expense of all these actual practical issues was one of the reasons.

I thought this was interesting, with a school being told it must provide single sex toilets, gender neutral alone is not acceptable. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jz5ed7lv5o

Can I just thank all of you who are waving the flag for biological women on this thread? I’m reading your thoughtful posts, even though I am not contributing much. Well done!

The issue of gender neutral toilets in schools was kicking off as long ago as February 2023 SueDonim. I seem to remember reading about a school in Norfolk I think who turned almost all toilets into gender neutral and the girls and their parents complained that the girls were afraid to use them.

Yes, I’d heard of similar reports, Carlotta. I’m so sick of women being told to budge up!

Yes there have been some terrible stories from girls about gender neutral toilets in schools. As an aside school toilets ( secondary schools) frequently aren't great, and could do with some investment.

Hopefully this is just the beginning of past wrongs being put right:

Transgender women have been banned from the female category of Ultimate Pool Group (UPG) after last week's landmark UK Supreme Court ruling that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

The professional body for 8-ball pool said it has amended its eligibility rules so that participation in its women's events "are open only to biologically born women".

Carlotta

The issue of gender neutral toilets in schools was kicking off as long ago as February 2023 SueDonim. I seem to remember reading about a school in Norfolk I think who turned almost all toilets into gender neutral and the girls and their parents complained that the girls were afraid to use them.

Even before 3023, Girls’ toilets at a girls’ school where a girl lied that she was a boy and persuaded others to join her, then denied girls entrance because the toilets were now for ‘boys’ would not have been helped by a gender neutral declaration.

I saw a video of a young lady on my Facebook showing off her glorious long hair. She showed pictures of how she had a "boys" haircut at 15... Full of comments about how she can't change sex... This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.

How did you know it was a young lady Luminance?
Are you saying that you can tell the difference?
Some people aren’t going to be happy with your ability.

Well, she said she was so I was wholly taking her word for it. I suppose I could have mistranslated, my German is not the best. If she is infact a trans young lady, I could not tell no.

🤣🤣🤣

Galaxy

And what would you have done if one of the women had said no.

I think the Management would have told Pamela that unfortunately she would have to risk using the Male toilets. We would still have given the guys a tough time if anything untoward happened - as, hopefully, the Management would also have done. But we were unanimous in that we considered Pamela no threat to us. No Problem.

This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.

Yeah, those pesky extremists; making horrid comments about girls and women; they're everywhere these days. Did they scream "TERF" at her when she tried to explain? They do that a lot you know.

Carlotta

^This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.^

Yeah, those pesky extremists; making horrid comments about girls and women; they're everywhere these days. Did they scream "TERF" at her when she tried to explain? They do that a lot you know.

No, they shouted at her saying she couldn't change sex and some anti trans things, as far as I am aware she just regretted cutting all her hair off and was happy it had finally grown back.

So? They were stupid pesky extremists weren't they? Perhaps you'll now appreciate how utterly unnecessary and unpleasant it is when a minority of extremists make horrible remarks just because you're not looking/behaving/saying what they want you to do. I sympathetise and commiserate with her; women have been putting up with it from TRAs for 15 years.

Trying again to have any real discussion without it become derisive or point scoring. In other circles there are a lot of concerns about how trans men will be impacted by this. According to the ruling they can be excluded from men's facilities or wards. This may mean they are excluded from women's safe spaces too because of their appearance. It may cause all sorts of problems when people perceive someone who appears male trying to walk into a woman's toilet. How on earth the NHS, refuges and trans men themselves are supposed to overcome those issues I do not know. A whole section of biological women will not be able to enter safe spaces where their appearance will make other biological women feel vulnerable. Rather a quandary to be resolved.

Yup Luminance it's a real problem. And it's a pity it got so far in it's delusion and led so many people up the garden path of believing something that was biologically impossible.

Luminance

I saw a video of a young lady on my Facebook showing off her glorious long hair. She showed pictures of how she had a "boys" haircut at 15... Full of comments about how she can't change sex... This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.

Why put your life on Facebook?
These people cannot have been her 'friends' either.

Was she donating her hair to The Little Princess Trust? What a wonderful thing to do.

Luminance

Trying again to have any real discussion without it become derisive or point scoring.
Which you do so expertly.
Carlotta

Yup Luminance it's a real problem. And it's a pity it got so far in it's delusion and led so many people up the garden path of believing something that was biologically impossible.

Luminance, I am trying again to have a real discussion without it becoming decisive/derisory (?) or point-scoring.

The example you use is reminiscent of a previous poster who seemed to 'know' a huge number of transpeople yet also claimed that problems only existed for a minority. That can't work in reality. Either one person comes across enough transpeople to be able to generalise based on that sample, or they/we don't know enough to be able to have an opinion. Both can't be true.

Any of us can claim to be anything on here - I could say I am an eminent psychologist, or a teaching assistant, or a geneticist, for instance, and who would know otherwise? We really can't do more than speak theoretically, as I could claim to have friends who do XYZ, or to meet clients/patients/students on a daily basis who do ABC, and who could argue against that?

We have had posters on here who seemed to preface every post with anecdotes about 'my trans friends' or 'all my Lesbian friends'/ 'my young feminist friends' as if that proved anything or made them seem more 'in touch' than everyone else on GN.

Similarly, we've had people claiming that their 'training' gave them more insight than others' personal experience, and that proved nothing either, given that the training was relatively low-level and provided by Stonewall.

All we can reasonably do is talk in theoretical terms and maybe flag up an occasional example from experience that shows theory to be inadequate in a particular case. Anecdotes in general are not enough to prove anything though, however important they are to those living through the circumstances that they describe.

A propos of nothing relevant to this thread, however, I would like to offer an apology to Germaine Greer (not that she'll care either way) as she was one of the few women to sniff out the reality of this whole shebang years ago - way before I managed to get there. Embarrassingly, I thought that she was out of touch, and can't tell you all how bad I feel about that now. Luckily for both GG and me, she wouldn't be able to spot me in a crowd, whilst I am in awe of her intelligence. Sorry, Germaine.

Great apology there Doodledog. Germaine’s generation of feminists are still taking flak. One of my favourites is the old ‘feminisms gone too far, that’s why we have Andrew Tate and his supporters’.

You aren’t alone in spotting the similarity in style and content between Luminance and posters whose names no longer appear

Iam64

Great apology there Doodledog. Germaine’s generation of feminists are still taking flak. One of my favourites is the old ‘feminisms gone too far, that’s why we have Andrew Tate and his supporters’.

You aren’t alone in spotting the similarity in style and content between Luminance and posters whose names no longer appear

You’re right about Doodledog’s post, from start to finish.
It’s a long time since I read The Female Eunuch and hadn’t really thought about Germaine Greer in the context of Transwomen. Thanks for that reminder.

Great post Doodledog. A good while ago I observed how in my younger and even middle-aged days I'd thought Germaine Greer so out of touch but had come to realise how right she was. I wish we saw her being interviewed more. Victoria Derbyshire would get tougher answers than she bargained for certainly. I saw a snippet of her interview with Rosie Duffield where she asked if Rosie felt responsible for a young transwomen's distress at the clarification of sex in the EA. Never a moment's consideration for all the women for whom this clarification could be a huge step forward.