J K Rowling has nailed it - re Starmer and the trans issue

I should add I'd not agree with it being standard practice to put transmen on the men's ward but in extremis I'd be OK with it.

I'd agree Rosie51; it's simply down to

a) women being uncomfortable with a biological male on their ward
or
b) a biological male being uncomfortable on a men's ward

I've never heard of any trans women being assaulted on a men's hospital ward, so their seems no danger there. But there has been an incident of a woman being raped on a hospital ward by a trans-woman (biological male).

As an aside about being uncomfortable,
When DH was in hospital recently, they moved a late teenage boy out of the men’s ward into a separate room because of concerns that both he and the men would be uncomfortable listening to the treatment most of the men on that ward were receiving.

Oof! That sounds like an unpleasant situation all round, Molly.

I think that Rosie's suggestion that everyone knowing that the transman is a woman and the transwoman is a man is the best way forward. That way, people will learn to accept transpeople as transpeople, and a lot of the pain will lessen. The more of that sort of thing the better, so long as it is handled sensitively, particularly at first.

Eventually, it really won't matter how people 'present', but nobody can claim to be the sex that they aren't, and the language will reflect that. I hope.

I do have grave reservations for an across the board mandated policy for a transwomen or transman, sick in a hospital bed, to have to face every one else on that ward to be told they are trans (in order to explain why an apparent person of the opposite sex has appeared)
Trans people are far from being accepted by all and mocked or attacked and when sick as well?

Only about 0.05 percent of the population in the uk. are trans.
About 285 trans are in prison at present. What a lot of upset and damage has been done to young people by the stupidity of the last few years, where you cant open your mouth for fear of upsetting someone. Regarding hospitals, simple, if they have a womb ladies ward, a penis the mens.

I do have grave reservations for an across the board mandated policy for a transwomen or transman, sick in a hospital bed, to have to face every one else on that ward to be told they are trans (in order to explain why an apparent person of the opposite sex has appeared)

Whilst I can understand your concern Wyllow is that not what you're asking women to do? Would it be any more difficult for a trans woman patient to have to explain his presence/appearance to male patients than it would female? And vice versa for a trans man?

Why would people need to be told, the medical professionals will know their sex.

Oh I see what you mean. Men who identify as women won't be on a male ward, streeting has already said that.

Wyllow3

I do have grave reservations for an across the board mandated policy for a transwomen or transman, sick in a hospital bed, to have to face every one else on that ward to be told they are trans (in order to explain why an apparent person of the opposite sex has appeared)
Trans people are far from being accepted by all and mocked or attacked and when sick as well?

So your solution is?
In the situation I mentioned above, when DH was in hospital, how comfortable would your transman with urinary tract issues feel in a ward full of men?
How comfortable would the men feel if they discovered that the transman was in fact a woman?
(They undoubtedly would, because some people can tell, and at the least it would give rise to speculation.)
What if the trans man would prefer to have treatment urinary tract problems dealt with by a female doctor in a ward where the doctors have been men?
There are lots of questions, none of which require accusations of mocking, unlike the mocking attitude of the TW in my DD’s mental health ward, who mocked not just the patients, but the nurses who were afraid to do anything about it when accusations of transphobia could lose you your job?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

EHRC have issued their interim guidance, I have read it very quickly but looks very clear.

I think maintain the guidance that patients are treated on same sex wards but that there is the possibility of professionals making "Best option" exceptions in complex and difficult situations.

Galaxy

EHRC have issued their interim guidance, I have read it very quickly but looks very clear.

That's speedy, will be interested to see it.

It's brilliant for lesbians, really clear they can organise without men.

Here's the Interim Guidance:

www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment

Thanks carlotta.

Thanks Carlotta that looks like a really good start. It is brilliant for lesbians and gay men, but I'm especially pleased that lesbians will be able to exclude males no matter how they identify.
It really looks like sanity may be making a comeback.

It really looks like sanity may be making a comeback.

Yes but we can expect much wailing and gnashing of teeth from TRA's. The hyperbole has started already:

On Thursday a Labour peer claimed that trans people were seeking asylum abroad fearing for their safety after the recent Supreme Court judgment.^
Speaking in a debate in the Lords, Lord Cashman said: “Currently, trans people in this country live in fear, they live in fear of their safety, their futures.

“Indeed, some friends are now looking at seeking asylum in countries where they will fear not [for their] safety but where they will receive a welcome.”

He did not, however, provide any evidence to support his claim.

We're back with the nebulous "trans friends" again.

I'm only posting this because it made me laugh out loud! Seen on Reddit:

Hell, we can actually change someones chromosomes. Medical science has the power.



Ah bless!

Thank you Carlotta.
It looks like some careful thought has already gone into this.
Membership of an association with 25 or more members looked particularly interesting.

Membership of an association with 25 or more members looked particularly interesting

Yes it does doesn't it! I'm especially pleased about that girl Guides organisation will now have to make changes. It never sat well with me that groups of teenage girls could go to camp weekends and have to share their sleeping accommodation and washing facilities with teenage boys. I've never forgotten about Helen Watts, a Guide Leader for 15 years, being expelled from Guides for raising safeguarding concerns when transitioning boys were admitted.

Let's face it the only peiple Lord Cashman cares about were born male. He doesn't give a monkey's about biological women, and I doubt very much he would accept a transman as a potential sexual partner. In common with Nancy Kelley of Stonewall, he's very comfortably ensconced with his 'same sex' partner, who coincidentally is the same biological sex. It's astounding how none of the most vociferous trans advocates actually have a transgender partner. Looking at you too Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson et al.

Don’t they have unisex toilets and changing rooms already? They have been around for years and years with no issues arising ( except the cleanliness of the unisex facilities) .

Not a big Harry Potter fan myself but I applaud the brave public stance of JKR who, despite all the threats and the bullying stayed true to common sense. . Well done.