J K Rowling has nailed it - re Starmer and the trans issue

And doodledog you left the labour party over this issue, which was more than I did, although it was touch and go. I hung on until other issues pushed me away.

Allira

"The Gender Recognition Act 2004[1] is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that allows adults in the United Kingdom who have gender dysphoria to change their legal sex. It came into effect on 4 April 2005."

"Among those who voted against the bill were Ann Widdecombe (who opposed it on religious grounds), Dominic Grieve, Peter Lilley and Andrew Robathan. Among Conservative MPs who supported the bill were Kenneth Clarke, Constitutional Affairs spokesman Tim Boswell, and future speaker John Bercow."

Interesting. I don't think it's about left and right, and never have.

I don't know, but suspect that in 2004 I would have voted for it to go through, as it did seem to be about tolerance and 'being kind' without the benefit of the hindsight we have now.

Who would have envisaged 'chestfeeders' and TRAs screaming death threats at 'TERF's back then? Or compulsory use of pronouns that suggest men are women because they say so?

Theresa May was another one who I believe was of the opinion that men could transition to becoming a woman without medical intervention. These acquired beliefs have been embedded across the political spectrum. I don't know how people can have faith in politicians, let alone a PM who comes across as frightened rabbit backed into a corner, hence "well whilst the majority of women don't have a penis a minority do". These people aren't conviction politicians, we know they're sucking up to the zeitgeist of the moment. 20 years ago they wouldn't have capitulated to what then would have been considered an unsubstantiated fallacy.

20 years ago they wouldn't have capitulated to what then would have been considered an unsubstantiated fallacy.

Yet politicians did capitulate to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 which gave people the right to falsify birth certificates and allowed activists, including Stonewall, to misrepresent the law.

I don't think some of the protesters did themselves any favours whatsoever. All they proved was the they are in fact biological aggressive men. Why on earth attack statues?.especially Millicent Fawcett a suffragette!. As I said, aggressive, uninformed men, thankfully now outside women's spaces particularly sport.

When I say I would have (maybe) voted for it to go through I don't mean that I believed men could become women, but that I don't think I would have realised the harm that could be done. It seemed like a tiny minority of people just wanted to live their lives differently from how they started, and that's probably still the case for a lot of people.

What was not obvious (to me, anyway) was that the issue would be used by anti-feminists to reverse so much of what women had fought for, or that it would become so divisive. How could it have been?

This is just another thread focusing on Starmer bashing with no context - for the sake of it as per the right wing press - why not join the already existing discussions.

The subject of this post is J,K, Rowling. The usual excuses: Starmer bashing and right-wing press.

Keir Starmer's behaviour over the issue of trans rights, and much else, gives me cause for concern. He has dissembled, deceived,changed his mind and now announces that he accepts the Supreme Court's judgement, for clarity. He has no choice.
I have no confidence in him as a leader, and do not forget how he apparently supported Jeremy Corbyn Leadership as his second-in-command, his choice, then turned on him and had him expelled from the Labour Party as soon as there was an opportunity for him to become Leader.
I hold no brief for Jeremy Corbyn, but I believe he stuck by his principles, disastrous though they were. Starmer changes according to the prevailing wind and his own self-interest.
I fear for the future.

Truth is truth

I do wish people would stick with that, rather than let another other thing whatsoever, get in the way of it.

Didn’t you know that anyone who criticises Starmer is extreme right wing? That is what they want you to think. Must be a whole sh3tload of extreme right wingers there.

This whole left-wing right-wing thing is just not pertinent to most people who would probably categorise themselves as either left of centre or left-leaning or right of centre or right-leaning. None of which means they agree with every single policy or statement issued by their fellows on that side. That was the outlandish accusation made by James O'Brien, that if you supported the 'sex is biological and immutable' verdict you were somehow on Team Trump 🙄🙄 but then he is a sandwich short of a picnic on many issues.

nanna8

Didn’t you know that anyone who criticises Starmer is extreme right wing? That is what they want you to think. Must be a whole sh3tload of extreme right wingers there.

I've often wondered where you get your ideas about the UK, nanna8, but the idea that only extreme right wingers criticise Starmer is preposterous.

It’s reassuring to know that our Prime Minister now believes that a woman does not have a penis even if he wasn’t sure before the Supreme Courts unanimous judgement that backed the biological definition of a woman. He said that it backs up his firm belief that a woman is a ‘adult human female’ and that he was pleased about the ruling, hmm.

Pantglas2

Everyone I know, family and friends, have always believed that women don’t have penises. Were we wrong (and Starmer and co right because the Law hadn’t told them otherwise) to have held those beliefs up until last week?

I don’t think so! And as for not seeing it as a win, imagine if it’d gone t’other way…darn right they’d be crowing!

Very, very far from the reality Pantglas as a Labour Party member with a knowledge of the breadth of opinion and the changes of same.

Continuing the present situation was getting intolerable and showing more and more situations into disarray and conflict.

As many have said the consequences of the GRA were completely unforeseen and the consequences have caused many people I know to change their minds.

Including politicians who also have changed their minds because of consequences.

It's the press as far as I can see that have made the stupid question on penis' the "key to it all". Its much more about who can use which spaces, protection of safe spaces, protecting vulnerability whomever experiences it.

James O’Brien. 😂 an annoying twerp, full of himself.

Being a married man, one would assume he knew what a woman was, please can we have common sense back.

Oh he knew. He just didn’t want to alienate any support.

I criticise Keir Starmer for his stance on this issue not for political reasons as I am not a conservative voter but because he was wrong along with many others.
A lot of damage has been done to women with the blessing of those who believed a man could change sex and become a woman.

P.S. Thanks to JK Rowling and all the brave women who helped this ruling to finally become law, you are all awesome.

AGAA4

I criticise Keir Starmer for his stance on this issue not for political reasons as I am not a conservative voter but because he was wrong along with many others.
A lot of damage has been done to women with the blessing of those who believed a man could change sex and become a woman.

He was wrong, but to me it is the fact that he was wrong along with so many others that makes his being singled out for criticism feel vindictive. I'm not saying that you are being vindictive, AGAA4, but making a general point.

Doodledog, I do feel quite vindictive towards Starmer, as our prime minister and leader and also a legal person he should have stood up for the truth from the beginning, and I'm including his pre election time in that criticism.

But under previous law - ie the GRA - which may conservatives supported at the time - it was law that said transgender women could identify as women gender wise

Why should Starmer have to apologise for following that law before the Supreme Court ruling? he didnt even have to do anything with brining that law into being in 2004?

Now he has made clear he will follow what has now come into law.

Why don't people feel "vindictive" towards Conservatives who failed to attempt to change that law?

I feel vindictive to all who allowed this carnage of biological womens rights, its been a disgrace, forcing people to accept lie after lie.

Doodledog

Allira

"The Gender Recognition Act 2004[1] is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that allows adults in the United Kingdom who have gender dysphoria to change their legal sex. It came into effect on 4 April 2005."

"Among those who voted against the bill were Ann Widdecombe (who opposed it on religious grounds), Dominic Grieve, Peter Lilley and Andrew Robathan. Among Conservative MPs who supported the bill were Kenneth Clarke, Constitutional Affairs spokesman Tim Boswell, and future speaker John Bercow."

Interesting. I don't think it's about left and right, and never have.

I don't know, but suspect that in 2004 I would have voted for it to go through, as it did seem to be about tolerance and 'being kind' without the benefit of the hindsight we have now.

Who would have envisaged 'chestfeeders' and TRAs screaming death threats at 'TERF's back then? Or compulsory use of pronouns that suggest men are women because they say so?

Yes, it was about tolerance and kindness.

Who would have envisaged 'chestfeeders' and TRAs screaming death threats at 'TERF's back then? Or compulsory use of pronouns that suggest men are women because they say so?

Who'd have thought it would result in such intolerance and hatred coming from TRAs, and intolerance towards women from those in positions of authority such as those in charge of LHAs?

Why don't people feel "vindictive" towards Conservatives who failed to attempt to change that law

That’s a very good question Wyllow.

I think I know the answer.

Bridie22

I feel vindictive to all who allowed this carnage of biological womens rights, its been a disgrace, forcing people to accept lie after lie.

Agreed. I’m so angry with those in power, Conservative, Labour or Lib Dems who allowed this nonsense to go on for so long.
Thanks to Graham Linehan, JKR, Sex Matters, For Women Scotland and all the women and men who were cancelled, sacked, disciplined for telling the truth.