Open Door Part 2. The definition of insanity is trying things over again and hoping for a different result.

Good points, but step by step - first lets get modest chances for young people to get to know out neighbours better.

What is good however hasn't yet been mentioned, is that somehow elements of the Erasmus scheme - exchange of intellectual and practical ideas to benefit medicine and technology on an open basis in both our and applied science and maths

- has managed to survive the cuts post Brexit partly just by the sheer determination of individuals involved to keep in touch, and is now being better funded again.

Checked with DS: The Horizon Scheme has largely replaced Erasmus, its intention is still to bring together top researchers in Europe including the UK to work on bio-medical and genetic research and solutions into many serious conditions, long may it last. What I like is the freedom of ideas approach, sharing for mutual benefit across borders.

Yes, it was agreed that the UK could rejoin the Horizon project and the MSCA programme back in December 2023. That was under the previous government who I guess was paving the way.

Yes, it was begun out of concern coming from researchers as Erasmus grants were running out of time, having been made for some years. DS has made the switch, they aren't as good as Erasmus but thankfully are there.

There is a lot of informal working together outside of the scheme, from contacts made on it, but funding is essential for projects that have no immediate financial value. (There was more of that on Erasmus, and Horizon projects take a lot of time just working on proposals for money.) I still think there should be more as it translates eventually into jobs and prestige for UK medical/techie firms if we have substantial involvement.

It needn't be party political as it clearly benefits our advanced industries.

escaped

Chocolatelovinggran

I hope that this will make it easier for my young GC, born abroad, to study or gain work experience in the UK if they wish.
The country of which they are citizens funds study abroad.

I think it would be good if something more could be agreed about everyone recognising qualifications from all round Europe. It's daft that vets, medical staff, teachers, any professionals, or even tradesmen, etc. can't work in different countries without a great deal of hoop jumping.

The EU has never been very clever at joined-up thinking. Covid was a good example, where every country decided to go off and do their own thing.

An interesting idea, but as each EU country has its own implementation and recognition of skills, it is not seemingly achievable. There are some things the same,but both medical,nursing and veterinary training are not standardised and each country has its own specific regulations and requirements . It would come at huge cost to each country. Personally I think its not safe just to recognise another country's training without checks. Believe me I've seen this in action.

Surely it depends on the profession/work involved? I can't see we can generalise. Just did a google on nursing to see whats happening atm and got

"Yes, EU nursing qualifications are recognized in the UK, but the process can vary depending on whether the qualification meets the requirements for automatic recognition. If a qualification meets the EU standards for automatic recognition, it will be recognized by the UK Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) and you will not need to take a Test of Competence"

Plumbers? Electricians? Teachers?

Sarnia

Starmer is set to announce a new deal on youth mobility with the EU which is part of his Brexit reset.
It sounds very similar to Blair's Open Door policy and we all know what a disaster that was.
I sincerely hope Starmer has his facts right because he looked a total idiot when he trumpeted his return hub scheme with Albania only to be told by the Albanian Prime Minister, Rama, that their deal is with Italy and only Italy.

I’m surprised that Starmer is even considering doing this with immigration at such high levels.Where are the jobs for lots of 18 to 30 year olds from other countries? Presumably he’s trying to get immigration levels down only for them to go up again as a sop to the EU.
Macron wants to reset EU fishing rights too.

"Presumably he’s trying to get immigration levels down only for them to go up again as a sop to the EU"

Not if it's a limited time quota scheme to give valuable experiences for young UK citizens to bring back and vice versa. Increased knowledge of each other's cultures - language skills. Whats not to like?

Where are all the jobs?

Wyllow3

Surely it depends on the profession/work involved? I can't see we can generalise. Just did a google on nursing to see whats happening atm and got

"Yes, EU nursing qualifications are recognized in the UK, but the process can vary depending on whether the qualification meets the requirements for automatic recognition. If a qualification meets the EU standards for automatic recognition, it will be recognized by the UK Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) and you will not need to take a Test of Competence"

Plumbers? Electricians? Teachers?

What about English examinations?

When even native English speakers have to take an English examination at their own expense before they are considered competent to work in the NHS, can those from countries whose native language is not English expect to be offered a job without similar restrictions?

Good point Allira.
English language and maths used to be at least at C.
Then they started messing around with A* etc which made the C a lower level.
Now it’s numbers 1-9, so probably at least a 5 or 6.

Mollygo

Good point Allira.
English language and maths used to be at least at C.
Then they started messing around with A* etc which made the C a lower level.
Now it’s numbers 1-9, so probably at least a 5 or 6.

And GCSEs are still awarded A - G in Wales, I believe.

I'm not sure what the English examination contents are for the NHS are but it is a requirement.

Oreo

Where are all the jobs?

I don't know if people listen to The Rest is Politics podcast, but last week they were talking about how before Brexit a lot of young people came from Europe to work in areas like the hospitality industry, stayed for a bit and then went home again. After Brexit that fell away. (Rory said his local Italian restaurant now has no Italians on the staff). The people who have replaced them are more likely to come from countries beyond Europe and to want to settle and bring their families with them.
They pointed out that this might not be what people who voted for Brexit had in mind.

Allira

Wyllow3

Surely it depends on the profession/work involved? I can't see we can generalise. Just did a google on nursing to see whats happening atm and got

"Yes, EU nursing qualifications are recognized in the UK, but the process can vary depending on whether the qualification meets the requirements for automatic recognition. If a qualification meets the EU standards for automatic recognition, it will be recognized by the UK Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) and you will not need to take a Test of Competence"

Plumbers? Electricians? Teachers?

What about English examinations?

When even native English speakers have to take an English examination at their own expense before they are considered competent to work in the NHS, can those from countries whose native language is not English expect to be offered a job without similar restrictions?

I would expect a minimum of B2 and probably C1 for the medical profession. B2 is becoming standard in France.

New visa rules for skilled workers are increasing from B1 to B2 level.

B2

"B2 (Upper Intermediate) .... can understand the main ideas of complex texts on concrete and abstract topics, including some technical discussions, and express themselves fluently and spontaneously, enabling them to communicate comfortably with native speakers.

short article on changes in requirements

thepienews.com/uk-immigration-white-paper-to-overhaul-english-language-requirements/

I guess people from other European countries go home again, because at the end of the day they too love their own country. Quite understandable, difficult to explain. I used to receive young French people for years when I lived in London, they were working in fashion, hospitality etc. They gained a wealth of experience, improved their English, had a ball, but the intention always was to go back home.
That's why as a Brexiteer my decision had nothing to do with immigration, of any kind.

Many youngsters from other countries speak excellent English. My young granddaughters slip seamlessly from one language to another. In my professional life, a social worker I admired for her contributions to meetings was German.
The language skills of the young Slovenians I met on holiday there were remarkable.

Iam64

Oh goodie, another negative, grumpy thread for Starmer bashing

😂😂😂

Whitewavemark2

The EU is a powerful economic block. It is in a position to insist on certain rules that must be followed in order to benefit from trading with this block.

We were once in this position as a member. We gave that membership up with all the benefits it bestowed.

Exactly! In doing so deprived our younger generation of so many things and opportunities we took for granted.

Chocolatelovinggran

Many youngsters from other countries speak excellent English. My young granddaughters slip seamlessly from one language to another. In my professional life, a social worker I admired for her contributions to meetings was German.
The language skills of the young Slovenians I met on holiday there were remarkable.

Yes, many do but many do not.

However good their English, and that goes for NHS workers from overseas English-speaking countries too, they have to take an English examination before being employed in skilled jobs in the NHS.

Well, as it should be, as above, level B2 now.

Youngsters "swapping" is nothing new - remember school swaps with EU countries? Invaluable.

Mamie

Allira

Wyllow3

Surely it depends on the profession/work involved? I can't see we can generalise. Just did a google on nursing to see whats happening atm and got

"Yes, EU nursing qualifications are recognized in the UK, but the process can vary depending on whether the qualification meets the requirements for automatic recognition. If a qualification meets the EU standards for automatic recognition, it will be recognized by the UK Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) and you will not need to take a Test of Competence"

Plumbers? Electricians? Teachers?

What about English examinations?

When even native English speakers have to take an English examination at their own expense before they are considered competent to work in the NHS, can those from countries whose native language is not English expect to be offered a job without similar restrictions?

I would expect a minimum of B2 and probably C1 for the medical profession. B2 is becoming standard in France.

As a former language teacher, I've prepared pupils using the CEFR language framework (both German and English). My guess would be that there are quite a lot of native speakers who wouldn't pass the C1 assessment.

Indeed, Growstuff, easily forgotten in the rush to criticise!