Reform activists depict female cabinet ministers as cows in abattoir.

Some of the "not so good" universities were excellent polytechnics until John Major in 1992. Delivering good vocational courses. Changed because they wanted students to have "parity" qualification wise, and also because Polytechnics were funded by the local LA and not centrally.

A lot was lost on the vocational side however, it could have been done differently. Then "metrics" begun to count, ie universities judged "by results" which again looked for academic excellence as the prime measure of a "good" university. Subjects which weren't really measurable in this way feel by the wayside even more.

Then since around 2010, and especially in the 2010s, the landscape of university metrics has become more complex and sophisticated.

This includes more nuanced measures of research impact, student outcomes, and international collaboration. Universities get funded according to things like research papers by staff and taking part in Erasmus. Again, this pushed vocational subjects further down priorities. Academics have to churn out research papers to get better funding.

Its no accident that just 2 years after abolishing polytechnics - 1994 - the self serving Russell Group of universities "Set themselves up" to try and keep what was claimed to be academic excellence but was in fact a bid by to value academic subjects above all others.

Far from the new universities being "Valued" by the switch from polytechnics, for many its been a loss. but some ex-polyechnics have centres of excellence in some subjects, by the sheer efforts of staff and management of those universities.

but for vocational training its been a lose-lose. Academic snobbery still reigns, although in terms of top level research and development/collaboration with industry it's essential to have the top end parts of further education.

Yes, back to Reform, or maybe not as they will like any publicity at all? Who knows.
Sometimes stunts work and sometimes not and it will depend on Farage and what he warns his Party to do or not do.

Farage, like Trump, is Putin's puppet and has his strings pulled to demand attention by pushing the boundaries of decency to damage our society.

I started it so that people could discuss the issues which have hijacked the topic of this one.

Thanks growstuff.

There is more to be said about the topic of the thread - all part of the misogyny inherent in the way Reform operates whatever PR optics they try e.g. Tory defectors Andrea Jenkyns and Sarah Pochin placed in clear camera shot at the recent press conference. To be fair Luke Campbell was also in shot and looked terrified, as well he might. Did he think that becoming a Metro Mayor was about wearing a chain like a Lonsdale Belt?

I was planning a reply to Alllira’s post timestamped 10:07:42, about what constitutes a public order offence and why some warrant a custodial sentence but it’s seems pointless while we have all these posts about the education system swamping the thread.

Sorry Silverbrooks I got caught up in the derailing....

Churchview

*schools raise aspirations too much*

My observation of comprehensive schools in the 1970s is that their biggest failing was the dearth of aspiration for the pupils.

My husband and I were working class kids from council estates. Our careers advice was that we would be found, 'nice blue collar jobs'. Despite this we both built successful professional careers. What could my cohort of students have achieved if we'd been inspired to achieve our potential?

Churning out children purely to fuel the workforce comes at a huge opportunity cost. Encourage innovation, aspirations, dreams and who knows where our country might go.

I think you're 'at odds with the majority' David49 because of your blinkers, not your breadth of vision.

It is the limitation, the failure to encourage aspiration, excellen and critical thinking that has resulted in an electorate who will vote against their best interests - including voting for a party that call women cows destined for the abattoir.

I agree with this 100%.

Everything you say is why I don't believe that any education system can raise aspirations too much. We should all have aspirations and a motive to achieve them. We should accept that not everyone will manage to get to the top, but work towards a situation where anyone can try.

It's little things like being able to sniff out misrepresentations of others' words (eg claims that those who have knowledge of education are 'satisfied' with it when they are simply explaining that the specific attacks on it are not valid) that give people a voice. Fitting people for a workplace where they do as they are told and question nothing leads to an unequal society with no way out for the majority.

“This is an even narrower style of education than your image of current schools' attitudes and policies. Clearly it would take too long to re-educate you on the aims of education and the reasons so few of those receiving that education are motivated to train in passing it on to the next generation, and then to continue trying to do so for the rest of their working life”

That is exactly the UKs problem, the education system is trying to do too much and failing, state funding should concentrate on the priorities of the economy.

Why do you see humans as slaves to the economy? Who do you think benefits from that, and what do you think those who don't rely on state funding for education would choose to do?

David Why not move over to the "What is education" thread discussing this point? or maybe read HG Wells "The Time Machine".

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Yes. Rounded human beings able to think reasonably critically and curiously and humanely - a basic enough knowledge of our society, history, politics....

the worth of education which is not strictly heading for a vocation misses out crucial elements.

Elegran

David Why not move over to the "What is education" thread discussing this point? or maybe read HG Wells "The Time Machine".

Why not all posters move over to the education thread if they want to continue talking about it?

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Absolutely this. I heard Oscar Wilde's quote in my head earlier when reading this thread.

Churchview

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Absolutely this. I heard Oscar Wilde's quote in my head earlier when reading this thread.

And what makes you so sure you’re right about everything David

David49

“This is an even narrower style of education than your image of current schools' attitudes and policies. Clearly it would take too long to re-educate you on the aims of education and the reasons so few of those receiving that education are motivated to train in passing it on to the next generation, and then to continue trying to do so for the rest of their working life”

That is exactly the UKs problem, the education system is trying to do too much and failing, state funding should concentrate on the priorities of the economy.

Everything I see of our education system is that it is doing very well in the face of incredible difficulty.

It is worth remembering that the great flowering of British creativity that was the 1960s, which took British designers, pop stars and inventors into the world stratospheres was done by people whose school curriculum included art, music, woodwork and cooking where schools were not tied down by a national curriculum.

We need to get back to a broader curriculum that encourages creativity and makes children want to learn and explore. We do not need gradgrinds. That is what we have AI for.

Well said MOnica

Hear hear Monica

Education serving the needs of the economy?
Ideal if you are a Victorian mill owner.
For the rest of us in the twenty first century, see M0nica's thoughts above.

David49 I can't believe that you think education should necessarily have any links to the economy.

I am thinking that no education is wasted.

Slavery used to be considered vital to the economy of the American south, so much so that it was a crime to teach a slave to read and write, in case it made them uppity enough to abscond to freedom and getting paid for their toil.

Iam64

Churchview

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Absolutely this. I heard Oscar Wilde's quote in my head earlier when reading this thread.

And what makes you so sure you’re right about everything David

And what makes you so sure you’re right about everything David
Need I explain 😃

This thread is becoming like chewing the cud!