Should wearing a burqa be banned in the UK?

galaxy I wish you would say to whom you are replying in your posts😊 I’m never sure and don’t know if it requires a further comment

Sorry whitewave, the Tesco man arrived so I was in a hurry but to be fair I don't do it even when not in a hurry! I was just responding to the point about how well it is has or hasnt worked in other countries, a very difficult thing to assess I suppose.

You cannot make an analogy between covering the head and covering the face, umpteen people wear head coverings. How could those be deemed a barrier to transparency?

Transparency is a factor in all of this. Ideally faces should not be covered, that includes balaclavas, we know they have been used for insidious reasons. One of the male killers of WPC Sharon Beshenivsky slipped out of the country disguised in a burka, when I read that I definitely thought they should be banned. It's a difficult one really, we do live in a free society, but looking towards mainland Europe, many countries have banned it on the ground that incomers should assimilate and respect the host culture. At times I think France has been heavy handed in enforcing that in taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut possibly. The burka is a very alien garment here in the west, its connotations are numerous, not least the subjugation of women, when we see pictures of the women of Afghanistan in the most extreme of those all encompassing garments complete with that ludicrous facial contraption which impedes their peripheral vision. Lets be honest as women it gives most of us rage on their behalf as to the misogyny dished out by a hard line theocracy. Patriarchal religions are forever dictating some sort of supplication as far as women are concerned. Watching Simon Reeve's programme on Scandinavia, Denmark in particular, a culture that many in the west look to as an ideal in all things egalitarian, it is their desire to see their immigrants fully immersed in Danish culture, their rationale is simply parallel societies that exist within the country as a sub culture that cling to customs not compatible with all that Denmark has to offer, will not afford their female citizens the same advantages as their Danish counterparts. The two sides of the coin are, as we sometimes hear, there are some women that don the burka of their own volition and there will be those that are forced to wear it. Outwardly it's a barrier, we need to see faces to engage, the subliminal message in forcing women into this type of apparel, is to make them some sort of non person which is beyond insulting imo.

Would we accept being forced to wear such a garment? if we answer no, then why is it acceptable for women from other ethnic groups to have it foisted upon them, are they not our equals ?

Thanks.

Looking at Wikipedia - it shows the countries where it is fully or partially banned.

Some surprising countries, like Canada who always seem very laid back about these things.

But I would hope it is done for either purely practice reasons or trying to achieve integration rather than racism.

That post was to galaxy !!

terribull I was very persuaded by the Danish argument, but was also mindful of the Muslim chaps negative reaction, so that is when I feel coercion is not the best choice.

Yes it should be banned. We are a Western country, not middle Eastern, and it needs to stay that way. I am out and proud Reform supporter.

So I am coming at this from a feminist perspective mainly but the points about 'alien to European culture' are interesting. I think for me the concern about security is probably the least of my worries about it. That is an important point that Terribull made about our instinctive reaction, I absolutely have that reaction, I would be lying if I said I didn't, it is about the message it sends about women and to women.
I have just had a look and 8 European countries have some form of ban in reference to public spaces.

Banning the burqa could free many women who don't want to wear it but are compelled to do so.
The problem would be for those who want to wear a burqa or who have husbands who insist that they stay at home if not wearing one.

Just re-read your post terribull - good argument.

No:

for reasons outlined above by others:

I'd like to see its use fade, it is fading as women who currently use it see other Muslim women just in a headscarf, and realise its OK, let this process continue.

If women we see oppressed by choosing to wear a burka are ordered not to, we are in our turn oppressing them!

We live in a liberal country, lets act like it.

but use a carrot not a stick.

Yes WW I was very sympathetic to the taxi driver, I felt sad for him forced to leave his neighbourhood. When Simon went into the Danish parliament and had the conversation with the Danish Parliamentarian, my initial thoughts, particularly with the posters of the nuclear Danish family ideal, shades of Nazism ......but they forced their Jewish communities out to live on the fringes, before eliminating them completely. The Danish rationale on the contrary is to draw their immigrant communities in and make them inclusive so they can benefit, particularly from an educational pov. It could be argued their methods are rather hardline.

wyllow3
Yes, so why Canada? Well all of the European liberal countries, who in some cases are traditionally more liberal than us?

I just wonder as to those who don't want it banned, and I'm not saying I do, I'm still deliberating. I'd ask this would you accept being told to cover up in such a way from your father, husband, son, brother, community leader, priest whoever, if not, why not???

I think the face should be seen. Dangerous people can hide ‘openly’ in a burqa.

Lathyrus3

I’m so thick I can’t even see the alliteration 😳

😂😂😂

I think it's the b b b but it's not blaringly obvious.

It depends.
Are women being coerced into wearing the burqa by the men in their families or religious leaders, or are they wearing them through choice?

I think no woman should be wearing a burqa if they are in a public-facing position, eg teacher, doctor etc as we need to see facial expression.

Some time ago I was in the waiting room of the gynae department.
With me in that department was a married couple from Afghanistan. The man was dressed in the traditional Afghan pakoi ( hat) and a shawl.
His wife had on the full burqa the women wear in Afghanistan.
It was a very odd encounter in a small room.
They went in before me and all I could think of was that poor woman was being examined by a male gynaecologist with ( I presume) her husband translating.

When I go to other countries I respect their customs. The same should apply here. This taken from an article in the Daily Telegraph:

Our culture, rooted in Judeo-Christian values, Enlightenment reason and the hard won principle of sexual equality, has made this country one of the most tolerant and liberal on earth. But tolerance cannot mean indifference. A society that tolerates everything, even its own erosion, will not survive.

there is a longer article in today’s Daily Telegraph for those interested.

I think Ladyleftfield is thinking about a hijab not a burqa

My first reaction to this was of course not, other religions cover their hair, Jewish men wear skull caps, nuns wear hair covering, sheiks wear turbans etc etc but then thinking about it more deeply you realise that by allowing this very old tradition we are actually playing into the hands of the controlling men making their wives cover their whole body including their face which really does have no place in the world ever it is not a religious need but totally male control over woman How uncomfortable and debilitating it must be to be contained head to foot in black material with no choice, if the men wore similar garb it would be different but they don’t do they ?
So hijab yes fine Burka no not fine

However I totally DISagree with Teaze s reasoning and hate to agree with anything that Far Right hideous party suggests

Galaxy

Thick people love describing people with different ideas yo themselves as thick.

😁

It made me want to thcream and thcream until I'm thick.

I personally can't stand the awful ugly things, created by men to dehumanize women but I think it should be up to the individual women if they wear them or not.

I'm unsure about the wearing of the burqa in the UK. When I was in Saudi I had to keep my legs covered and I adhered to that. I was also not allowed to swim in public. This was a long time ago admittedly but I still feel we should wear what is considered appropriate in a country where the covering of parts of the body is important to the people who live there.

I think the best way is not to ban but, certainly, have circumstances and situations where it is not acceptable.

A simple rule that says in a situation where any head covering would be unacceptable, a burka is unacceptable. Anywhere it is necessary to see and recognise someone so that you would recognise them again a bloke in a motcycle helmet is just a bloke in a motorcycle helmet. John Bloggs without his helmet is John Bloggs. A woman in a burqa is (possibly) a woman in a burka - although it could be a man - who knows. Mary Smith is clearly and recognisably Mary Smith.

Would we accept being forced to wear such a garment? if we answer no, then why is it acceptable for women from other ethnic groups to have it foisted upon them, are they not our equals?

Well said, Terribull

I noticed the Afghan women here were robed but not wearing the full burqa, the men in Western dress. The girls coming out of secondary school were wearing the hijab with school uniform. I hope the girls will gradually become more integrated and be able to decide for themselves without a man dictating to them how they should appear in public.

Allira

Lathyrus3

I’m so thick I can’t even see the alliteration 😳

😂😂😂

I think it's the b b b but it's not blaringly obvious.

It depends.
Are women being coerced into wearing the burqa by the men in their families or religious leaders, or are they wearing them through choice?

I think no woman should be wearing a burqa if they are in a public-facing position, eg teacher, doctor etc as we need to see facial expression.

Doctors, teachers, public face to face, people aren't allowed a burka? The school/LA/doc practice etc insists I bleive.