Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

I have zero expectation of anyone giving me any answers on Gransnet MaizieD. It’s a recent awareness on my part that maternity care is problematic here and I had hoped this would be of interest on this thread. My mistake.

ronib

I have zero expectation of anyone giving me any answers on Gransnet MaizieD. It’s a recent awareness on my part that maternity care is problematic here and I had hoped this would be of interest on this thread. My mistake.

Maternity care is problematic here; whether it is worse than 40 years ago is debatable but my own distressing experience from then, along with someone else I know whose child was starved of oxygen at birth with devastating consequences (she was left alone too, different part of the country) makes me think nothing has changed.

The fact that midwives did not have to be trained nurses was a worrying development too, I feel but now they are required to undertake more rigorous training.

With two positive NHS birth experiences from 40+ years ago I can't join in the condemnation of NHS maternity care. It is inevitable that there are failures in any large (enormous) organisations but to blame them solely on the staff present at the time is really not quite fair. I think we have to look much deeper for reasons. Chronic underfunding and constant 'reorganisations to suit ideology of what is essentially a political football has to be explored and seriously considered.

I wonder how much worse your birthing experience might be now MaizieD?
Doctors definitely going ahead with 5 day strike from Friday…..

I'm sad that the resident doctors are going ahead with their strike, I think it is a huge mistake. They have genuine grievances but this is not the way to get them addressed as I think Streeting is basically on their side and understands the issues.
I gave birth in the mid 70's and at the end of the 80's, both elective caesarians and I spent 8 weeks in hospital prior to the first birth with pre-eclampsia. I was well looked after and the food was definitely better than it is now.
Interestingly, doctors, including consultants, went on strike for the first time in 1975 for similar reasons to now. I think many have forgotten this.

MaizieD I posted earlier about my positive experiences of post and antenatal care in 1984 and 1986. I could detail the complications with 1984 but it’s enough to say the senior midwife called I helped me de,Uber my 8lb8 z face to pubes baby with no stitches or forceps.
Two of my grandchildren 2016 and 2018 born at the same hospital,both by planned C section. Fantastic care of my daughter and her babies. Ward so accommodating of family visiting. Less personal care pre birth but excellent post natal care

🫢

We do actually want to keep doctors in the UK, don't we?

As one Resident doctor said in an interview I listened to, she said some of the doctors were not striking as they actually could not afford to.

For goodness sake, these are people we rely on to save our lives..often dedicated, face the most appalling choices, have to know and work so fast now....

And they can't afford two days of work.

Have we all lost our minds?

They often work in A and E or Mental Health, in the most acute circumstances , as do the police.

Resident doctors’ current salary of between £38,831
Nurses start at a lower salary band, around £31,049
Police start at £29,907 a year

BUT

Doctors must complete several years of medical school before qualifying.

This saddles many doctors with debt before entering the workforce - something which is not a requirement for other emergency services, including firefighters and police, and they spend year on next to nothing student grants or parents pay

There are even those who believe in the draconian measures of denying the right to strike.
Wes Streeting is taking a tough line, which I believe has some validity, I'd like know more details, but would never deny the right of the workforce to take action if they believe they are in extremis.

I would be interested to see pay scales and the rate and time at which doctors' pay increases; starting salaries are meaningless unless the rate of progression up the scale is revealed.

Wyllow3 There are even those who believe in the draconian measures of denying the right to strike.

Are you unaware that the lowest starting salary you quote in your post belongs to the group that are forbidden by law to strike....the police?

I don’t think so Rosie51 armed services personnel start at even lower pay than the police. Let’s not forget them.

ronib

I don’t think so Rosie51 armed services personnel start at even lower pay than the police. Let’s not forget them.

Nor can they strike.

It would be termed mutiny. I don't think it's punishable by death any more.

Nurses start at a lower salary band, around £31,049

I don't know where you found that information, Wyllow3 but it's not correct.

Starting salary for a qualified nurse is £24,907.
They hope to move up through the Bonds and an average salary is around £33,000 - £35,000.

Often an experienced nurse will be guiding a newly qualified doctor through procedures; I have witnessed this several times as a patient.

Bands
Autocorrect!

Rosie51

Wyllow3 There are even those who believe in the draconian measures of denying the right to strike.

Are you unaware that the lowest starting salary you quote in your post belongs to the group that are forbidden by law to strike....the police?

Of course I am.

I agree with that, because it concerns our nations security against terrorism.

The doctors always without fail make provision for emergency cover.

Wyllow3 but emergency cover is but one aspect of the NHS. A lot of patients won’t be accessing emergency cover because they will have dropped off their perch waiting for treatment. The disruption caused by 11 strikes by doctors is incalculable. Not forgetting 5 more between now and January.

ronib

I don’t think so Rosie51 armed services personnel start at even lower pay than the police. Let’s not forget them.

????? Armed service personnel weren't named as one of the three in Wyllow's post. I also didn't mention prison officers who are banned by law from striking because Wyllow didn't name them either. My point was Wyllow thinks it's draconian to deny the right to strike....except if it's a category of worker she thinks should have that right denied, when presumably it ceases to be a draconian measure, and becomes an entirely reasonable one.
For what it's worth I can agree with certain sectors having that right withdrawn but only in exchange for not having to fight for just pay and conditions. Pity it's only the first part of that sentence that's honoured. It's surely not a coincidence that the sections we legally ban from striking also suffer poor pay and conditions?

Am all for the right to stroke but just an example of one way in which the strike does affect sick people’s lives. My husband has to date had a stroke and three bleeds on the brain, so a very sick person, he had a small bleed just over two weeks ago that neuro surgeons believed would stop so he was placed under observation on a ward for two days then sent home expecting a CT on 25th July. Of course that CT didn’t happen due to the strike and is now happening today, several days later. We have also been told there will probably be a delay in reading the scan due to a backlog so it might not be read for another couple of days. With a bleed on the brain the clock can be ticking and early detection of a large bleed can be life saving. My husband is confused and can lose his balance or feel really sleepy due to the stroke so is hard to tell if he has a large bleed until he is scanned.
Many others I am sure are facing similar situations.

Correction strike not stroke in opening sentence

Often an experienced nurse will be guiding a newly qualified doctor through procedures; I have witnessed this several times as a patient

Exactly this Allira.

Himself was on a ward at the Christie hospital for 2 weeks and 4 of those days coincided with the doctors strike. One of the nurses was talking to us about it all as she was resetting one of his iv drips. “We’ve a locum doctor on the ward today. He’s earning £150 an hour to cover for his shift and has asked me twice already in a certain situation what to do.”

DGD2 has told me that the day to avoid a trip to hospital is the first Wednesday in August when all the newly qualified F1 doctors take up their posts.

They call it Black Wednesday! 😮😂

The doctors always without fail make provision for emergency cover.

Not surprising if they get paid £150 ph for locum work.

Christie is a specialist cancer hospital though, a locum won't be necessarily trained to do certain procedures that the specialist nurses do as a routine. However, there are a lot of things that a qualified doctor can do that the nurses can't, eg prescribe. I think that nurse was very unprofessional discussing pay etc with a patient's relative. The level of pay for locum work reflects the market value of doctors, just like in any other job or profession.