Baby Victoria’s parents convicted of manslaughter gross negligence

I sincerely hope that no further appeals will be granted to this for entitled pair.
They have behaved appallingly towards their children, and have been contemptuous of the court proceedings throughout - lots of refusing to appear declaring themselves unwell, yet refusing to see a doctor, dismissing barristers ( fourteen between them, I believe) and shouting at people giving evidence.
Sufficient taxpayers money have been spent to ensure that the couple have had a fair hearing: it's time for them to settle into their sentence.

I agree Chocolatelovinggran. They certainly shouldn't be entitled go any further legal aid.

to any

I don’t know how CM was granted legal aid. News reports refer to her trust fund, she’s a wealthy woman. Despite that, they are said to have claimed benefits.

The mums net discussions cover all aspects of the trial and history in the family courts. A few posters see her as a victim of domestic abuse. There are also a few criticisms of the police , went in too heavy. Then criticisms that SSD go straight to remove children and don’t help mothers in abusive relationships. Fortunately, the vast majority see this situation as it is.
Parents who are obsessed with each other and fighting authorities to the exclusion of anything else.

From the trial it struck me that this was partnership of equals that involved violence. These two are totally obsessed with each other, to the exclusion of every one and everything else, including their children. Both come with very damaged backgrounds, regardless of money and breeding.

The way they manipulated the court and court procedures in order to disrupt proceedings, without being excluded was a master piece. These are two intelligent and subversive people playing the court system as if it was a Stradivarius violin being played by Nicola Benedetti.

She has a Trust fund of £2,500 per month; when their car burst into flames they lost £2,000 in a carrier bag.
An evil coupling.

Yes follie a deux with bells and whistles. In her evidence, CM deliberately talked about MG conviction for rape in the USA for which he served twenty years. A clear attempt to get the trial stopped as the conviction was now known to the Jury.
I understand sentencing will be September. I sympathise with health, social work, police who tried to safeguard the older children and Victoria. They tried to engage these ace manipulators who totally lack empathy and care obsessively only about each other . The police involved in finding and taking care of the remains of the baby whose life they tried so hard to save

If ever a couple demonstrated why they are unfit to be parents it was these two. The Judge had clearly had enough of them both. Completely disrupting both court cases with various excuses and bad behaviour.
I hope their sentences fit their crime.

A very unfortunate combination of two highly disturbed people .
It's incredibly sad .
Years ago they would have been sanctioned .

Horrible pair of people which has cost not only an enormous amount of money but court time which is very much needed to tackle the hug backlog of other cases.

Exactly/ plus the financial and emotional cost of the family proceedings, psychological harm to their older children and huge cost of police search
The social workers and police officers involved will carry this with them

Iam64

I don’t know how CM was granted legal aid. News reports refer to her trust fund, she’s a wealthy woman. Despite that, they are said to have claimed benefits.

The mums net discussions cover all aspects of the trial and history in the family courts. A few posters see her as a victim of domestic abuse. There are also a few criticisms of the police , went in too heavy. Then criticisms that SSD go straight to remove children and don’t help mothers in abusive relationships. Fortunately, the vast majority see this situation as it is.
Parents who are obsessed with each other and fighting authorities to the exclusion of anything else.

Thank God for the majority .
Hope their sentences reflect what they have done and the runaround they’ve given the courts.
Having said that, with a judiciary that’s just handed out sentences of four years for cutting down a tree ( however iconic it may be, it was a tree, not even a native to Britain one and not that old as trees go.) Nobody has ever received a prison sentence for cutting one tree down illegally.A tanker driver that weaved about and rammed into a house badly recently and was found to have Cocaine in his system only got a Community Order.

I’ve had a Quick Look at the sentencing guidelines for gross neglect manslaughter. It ranges 1 - 18 years, or a life sentence. Apologies for technical hopelessness I need to learn how to link. There is a list of factors the Judge will consider when sentencing. My reading leads me to believe these two people are likely to be given severe sentences. I live in hope and as many will know, I’m keen on alternatives to custody.

There were a minority of mumsnet posters initially suggesting CM was the victim of coercive control and domestic violence. Blaming heavy police publicity and loss of her older children soon trust in the system. I was relieved to see the majority summarising relevant factors about her culpability. It seemed the sympathisers hadn’t read the history

I have just read a summary(long read) in The Guardian.

Marten was Extraordinarily entitled and manipulative, and I don’t envy the prison guards.

Gordon - more difficult to get a handle on. But at 13 or 14 was found guilty of rape, and there seems to always be an element of violence about him.

What I do think though is that although it is a very twisted form of love, that they in their own world loved their children. We will never know what happened to Victoria, but I was reasonably convinced of accidental maternal suffocation.

The two together seem to have an explosive relationship that is corrosive and profound in a very damaging way, both for themselves and those whose lives they touch.

WWM2 Right from the start the baby was inadequately dressed for the circumstances she was living in. I seem to remember that at some point in the trial it was said that the only clothes they bought were 5 baby grows. They could have bought cosy quilted all-in-ones, that covered her head feet and hands, they could have wrapped her in a blanket, they could have bought an appropriate push chair, dressed her in a quilted suit and covered her with a blanket.

They may have in their own world loved their children. but in their own world they did not, at a very minimum, feel the need to properly dress their child to make sure she was warm and dry. Shoving the baby inside the mothers jacket with just a babygro was not just dangerous, but fatal.

From all I have read of these two, their care of their other children was just as neglectful and uncaring. That is why all four had been taken into care and put up for adoption, This would not have been done of social workers had thought there was any chance that the parents could ever be capable of properly looking after their children.

M0nica

WWM2 Right from the start the baby was inadequately dressed for the circumstances she was living in. I seem to remember that at some point in the trial it was said that the only clothes they bought were 5 baby grows. They could have bought cosy quilted all-in-ones, that covered her head feet and hands, they could have wrapped her in a blanket, they could have bought an appropriate push chair, dressed her in a quilted suit and covered her with a blanket.

They may have in their own world loved their children. but in their own world they did not, at a very minimum, feel the need to properly dress their child to make sure she was warm and dry. Shoving the baby inside the mothers jacket with just a babygro was not just dangerous, but fatal.

From all I have read of these two, their care of their other children was just as neglectful and uncaring. That is why all four had been taken into care and put up for adoption, This would not have been done of social workers had thought there was any chance that the parents could ever be capable of properly looking after their children.

Yes

I support MOnica’s post.
These two were totally obsessed and focussed on each other and their relationship. There was no space for the basic needs, never mind the emotional, physical and developmental needs of their children.
When the children were in foster care, contact was arranged but they rarely attended.
The children’s maternal grandmother withdrew from the kinship assessment, realistically recognising she couldn’t keep the children safe from their parents.
As far as the dreadful wilful neglect of Victoria ‘accidental maternal suffocation’ makes me feel its sanitising this baby’s brief and painful life. The image of her parents well wrapped up for the winter weather and a tiny baby in nothing but a baby grow will haunt many, especially police and social workers in a hopeless race to find and safeguard Victoria.
CM is a resourceful, manipulative individual, the behaviour of CM and MG throughout the two criminal trials gives no indication they’re able to look beyond their own needs, especially their objection and disdain of authority

I seem to have messed up in my post! But what I was trying to do was summarise the article that I’d read and add my two-penny worth.

I absolutely understand and support everything you have said and had come to the same conclusion whilst reading the reports of the trial etc. which is why I didn’t think it necessary to reiterate everything I’d read because I assumed everyone had read the same and come to the same conclusion. Clearly I was wrong and so I do apologise for muddling things.

Have not read anything on the case, I have nightmares and get depressed.I know a child died as a result of neglect and abuse, that is not gross misconduct its slow tortuous murder. They should not keep their lives. Hope they pay for it in Jail. However people say justice has been served it hasn't, that child was denied a life of perhaps 80 plus years and only knew pain before it was taken. Why should we pay for scum like that? There is no deterrent now for the most heinous crimes.

Whitewave, please don’t apologise, it’s such a high emotion thing to discuss and I appreciate you posting here

All sorts, I understand your feelings. In reality, no deterrent exists that would have made these two stop and think.

All we can do now is hold tight, cross our fingers and wait for the sentencing hearing in September.

I assume the judge will take into account their subversive, not quite too disruptive behaviour in court, plus their history of negligent parenthood when sentencing them for this crime.

eazybee

She has a Trust fund of £2,500 per month; when their car burst into flames they lost £2,000 in a carrier bag.
An evil coupling.

I so agree, a nasty pair and that poor little baby!

I’m also thinking that they, (and anyone else who deliberately harm their children), should be sterilised and prevented from making or carrying any more poor children. Maybe a bit drastic but too many young children die at the hands of those who should be protecting and nurturing them.