Baby Victoria’s parents convicted of manslaughter gross negligence

Whatever their sentences, they will appeal, make no mistake - neither of them has any respect whatsoever for the justice system and they have made every attempt to derail and draw out the whole process from the word go. They are a thoroughly toxic pairing who have no thought for anyone else other than themselves.

They’ll probably appeal, part of their perverse game..

Sorry ViceVersa crossed post

Appeal applications can be denied, which I hope will happen in this case.

Chocolatelovinggran

Appeal applications can be denied, which I hope will happen in this case.

Yes, let's hope so.

the BBC give a good summary Poor baby and the poor remaining children and what the repercussions might be for them. Even if the suffocation is to be believed, what loving parents put a body alongside soil and rubbish in someone's shed? it's sickening. My first thought was psychosis from drug use but it doesn't mention drugs at all.

That poor baby is uppermost in my thoughts. Also that child has older siblings who may one day find out the truth about their parents.
It is the children we have to think about, but no one seems to care about them...

It won't be long before there is another tragic case...there always is.

keepingquiet

That poor baby is uppermost in my thoughts. Also that child has older siblings who may one day find out the truth about their parents.
It is the children we have to think about, but no one seems to care about them...

It won't be long before there is another tragic case...there always is.

Agreed.

Sadly, there’s also the recent case of the poor little boy in Wales, killed by his grandparents!

Footage shown and described on the news of his mistreatment is tragic. I believe his mother was around as well.

What is wrong with such people!

keepingquiet

That poor baby is uppermost in my thoughts. Also that child has older siblings who may one day find out the truth about their parents.
It is the children we have to think about, but no one seems to care about them...

It won't be long before there is another tragic case...there always is.

Yes, keepingquiet. As we write and read these posts there will be children out there being subjected to the most awful ill-treatment, usually handed out by the very people those poor little souls should be able to trust the most.

I just finished listening to a harrowing story on BBC podcast called The Cruelty.

The first series was about a little boy washed up on a beach in Scotalnd and the search for his identity.

The second series comes up with new and equally harrowing information.

Today though, on the podcast, I heard an experienced family lawyer say that social services don't work with facts, only opinions by which they measure risks to any given child.

Even thought his was an old case, he was saying that nothing has really changed in this regard, even today.

From personal experience I was not at all shocked by what he said...

There are many who dispute and disagree strongly with that view, including many other experienced family lawyers
Evidence based practice is expected

Social workers most definitely do work with the facts. They often have to go to court to explain why they reached the decision they did.

Once they do have the facts and specialist reports, then they have to use their knowledge, judgement and 'opinion' to decide what actions need, or do not need to be activated to get the best outcome for the child.

Social workers write detailed reports setting out the family history, their assessment of the positives and risks and make recommendations about the options available to the Court. By final hearing, they will make a recommendation about the best outcome first the children.
They will be cross examined, forensically by counsel for each parent, the independent barrister or solicitor instructed by the children’s guardian, possibly a potential relative carer, the Judge can also ask questions at any point. It is inaccurate to suggest opinion guides the family court

I'm just saying this has been my experience and so I agreed with the lawyer on the podcast, who also had a lot of experience.

Iam64

Social workers write detailed reports setting out the family history, their assessment of the positives and risks and make recommendations about the options available to the Court. By final hearing, they will make a recommendation about the best outcome first the children.
They will be cross examined, forensically by counsel for each parent, the independent barrister or solicitor instructed by the children’s guardian, possibly a potential relative carer, the Judge can also ask questions at any point. It is inaccurate to suggest opinion guides the family court

this is spot on Iam64, I was a child protection social worker for 35 years and have written many such reports. You do have to give an opinion, but it must be evidence based, you can't just say I think so and shrug your shoulders, you have to say 'I don't think the parents are committed to the child because they only turn up for 2 out of 4 contact visits...' or whatever

I wonder therefore why family lawyers were always so keen to get hold of our court reports before any hearing, often wanting to pinch bits. I can assure you that social workers present evidence-based court reports with the additional knowledge gained from working with a family, extended family, other professionals. The he court makes the decision, we are instruments only.

I didn't say that SWs didn't have facts, but that their reports are also opinion based, which you have more or less confirmed.

I know from experience, backed up by this lawyer, that the first report is crucial in setting the pattern for subsequent reports.
As a retired professional working in children's services myself I would never have believed it until it happened to me.

Judgements can be influenced by personal and institutional bias. Once this bias has influenced a judgement it is very difficult, if not impossible, to argue against that bias because it will flavour all subsequent reports and then become regarded as fact.

I would never have believed this, having worked in and trusted the system all my life, but now I know the reporting system is seriously flawed and needs a massive overhaul.

It ruins people's lives and especially the lives of children.

I have zero confidence now in a system I used to unfailingly support.

When you hear of so many couples desperate to have children, and would give them a loving and supportive home, and you compare that to the disdain and neglect this couple have given their children, one despairs. One can only hope that their children have been accepted into happy homes. Although I also hope that when they are older they don't try to find their birth parents. Imagine how awful that would be.

I agree with you, keepingquiet. The facts in a SW report were completely wrong in somebody's case I knew. They made assertions and related circumstances which were completely wrong. The SW's excuse? She wrote it at 3am in the morning before she went on holiday. Her allegations could have had far reaching consequences but fortunately there were witnesses to the incident and it could have been refuted in court but that would have been completely stressful to the parents.

I've read that when their children were in care supervised visits were not high on the couple's agenda. Both of them are causing trouble and being difficult in prison. I feel too for their adopted children if/when they seek out their birth parents.

Lock them up and throw the key away I say! Their life will be made HELL in prison. A special place in HELL is reserved for them I hope.

Grandmama, the older children’s care proceedings concluded with approval for care plans leading to adoption. We don’t know their ages or whether any of them were to be placed together.
They will have ongoing life story work to help them understand and begin to make sense of their experiences, We expect so much of adoptive parents, who will have followed this dreadful story with the knowledge their children will one day be able to read on line the devastating information about their baby sister.

this is a very good article from The Guardian

Thanks Jane Judge, I hadn’t read that, it’s excellent.

I wonder if psychiatric reports have been prepared or ordered