Brexit. We never stood a chance. The elites were against it.

Brexit was is obstructed in every possible way

growstuff

escaped

I can't remember which French official it was,
but he later stated, WithBritainout of Europe, who is to be our partner? Germany is not the same.
I think this is why we are now seeing more rapprochement occurring, but the French need to be careful not to make it all take and little give in return. Where all the other 25, or is it 26, members fit in, I have no idea.

I would have voted yes to a federal Europe where every country had the same health service, the same retirement age, and contributed similarly, but that was never going to happen. Perfect harmony and compliance isn't possible with so many different countries, so to me it made sense for Britain to be independent and to be able to make its own decisions. For me, it had nothing, nothing to do with immigration or foreigners taking jobs, though many votes were primarily driven by this desire I agree.

But the UK lives in the real world. It depends on other countries diplomatically and for trade. We can't (and never have been) totally independent and able to make our own decisions. That's why we've always had alliances and trade agreements. In the "olden days" our sovereigns married off their offspring to the children of foreign sovereigns for political reason to strengthen alliances. You're kidding yourself if you think any modern state can stand on its own (unless you want to be North Korean).

Exactly, it is just common sense. If the UK wants to sell anything to the EU, it has to fit in with their system. Just take measurements- if standards in Europe are in metric, it is not commercial to insist on selling in Imperial measures. And it is perfectly fair for the EU to insist that safety, bio and other standards match their own. For all sorts of reasons, economic and safety, etc, etc, they should be totally stupid to accept lower or unchecked standards, as it would be unfair competition as well as real safety concerns. And yet Brexiter call their insistance on checking said standards as 'punishing' us unfairly, which is absolute nonsense.

Claremont Fishing is a classic example of mutual trading. The UK does not have total control over its waters, although Brexit has increased UK fishers' quotas. The problem is that fish isn't worth that much in its raw form. Far more money is made from processing. The UK's biggest market is the EU, but trade has decreased as a result of increased paperwork and sanitary checks. UK caught oysters, scallops, mussels are still banned in the EU on health grounds. Not only that, but the British traditionally don't eat much of the fish caught in UK waters - but EU citizens do, so much of it has to be exported (which is now more difficult). On the other hand, the British do eat the fish caught in EU waters, but importing has become more difficult and expensive.

In other words, the UK and EU both benefit from mutual agreements. Fish have no idea who owns the water they live in.

Oh not to be in the real world! I know it could never happened, due to our history etc, but I often wish we coud be an insignificant little island minding its own business, being self succificient in all ways, but peaceful and untouched by world events.

Maybe I'm getting old! But I've always liked to be self-contained and individualistic.

Whitewavemark2

growstuff

fancythat

MaizieD

M0nica

MaizieD

They were in government, MOnica. Doesn't that make them 'elite'?

Look who backed them. Billionaire media owners, big business owners...

The elite are the backers, those named are just glove puppets with those behind them manipulating them with their hands up their ***

Ah, those 'elites' that the Leave campaigners were telling everyone were running the country and that leaving the EU would put paid to their games?

Or were those different 'elites'?

I get really confused about these 'elites'...

People need to think World.

Not just Country. Or just EU.

World elites.

You forgot extra-terrestrial elites!

You are all wrong it is the massive hoax put out by MAGA.

“Drown the swamp”

It has been taken up by Trumps admirers like Farage etc.

The borrower is the slave of the lender.

We, and most other Countries are in debt to the tune of Billions. Or Trillions.

Who owns the debt? The world elite.

Countries are slaves.

We, and most other Countries are in debt to the tune of Billions. Or Trillions.

Who owns the debt? The world elite.

If you'd care to look at the holders of UK debt (I'd give you a link but you don't like further learning) foreign investors hold just 28% of UK 'debt'. Much of it is owned by UK pension funds and by UK citizens who value a steady and predictable income from the interest paid on their bonds. Of course, if you have premium bonds you are holding UK debt.

Those pesky foreign elites don't actually have a great deal to control the government with...

Nan0

Brexit was is obstructed in every possible way

Please give examples.

28% of uk debt, owed to foreign investors makes 0.625[near enough] Trillion[yes trillion] pounds.

Eye-watering sums.

Of that, allegedly, [not officially verified] 15% is owed to China

fancythat

Of that, allegedly, [not officially verified] 15% is owed to China

So what?

fancythat

28% of uk debt, owed to foreign investors makes 0.625[near enough] Trillion[yes trillion] pounds.

Eye-watering sums.

72% of the debt held by UK investors and institutions. An even more 'eyewatering' sum. Have they shown any sign of demanding to be repaid?

I might if I don't win a million £ next month. ☹

MaizieD

Has anyone considered that Brexit didn't live up to expectations because it wasn't as simple as Leavers were led to believe?

A global conspiracy to make it fail is a wonderful belief. It precludes having to deal with the practicalities of international trade.

Just this.

fancythat

Of that, allegedly, [not officially verified] 15% is owed to China

So who told you that, the bloke down the fish shop🤷‍♀️
The uk government doesn’t disclose which countries hold our bonds.

petra

fancythat

Of that, allegedly, [not officially verified] 15% is owed to China

So who told you that, the bloke down the fish shop🤷‍♀️
The uk government doesn’t disclose which countries hold our bonds.

I think he swears he’s Elvis, so don’t trust him.

😁

We should never have gone into EU in the first place, but it was supposed to be an alliance of like economies, but while we kinda knew that Spain and Italy were not as prosperous as they were making out, we could manage that, but then we let Greece join which bankrupted them and dragged us down.
Then we started letting in the gimme countries who wanted to join for the money. The point is that levelling was always going to drag us down.

But that is water under the bridge. Cameron was SO sure that we would all vote remain that he called the referendum. People were so p'd off with him that he got a bloody nose. What not many of us realised was that there was a very expensive series of exit payments to be made. But as several countries are now more than 100% of their national GDP in debt, we are not so badly off, as we do have a choice not a minority vote as to how we prop these countries up.

petra

fancythat

Of that, allegedly, [not officially verified] 15% is owed to China

So who told you that, the bloke down the fish shop🤷‍♀️
The uk government doesn’t disclose which countries hold our bonds.

Not officially verified as the Uk government, no longer tells who owns the foreign part of the debt.
Up to about 2014 the details were publically available.
I know as I, and lots of other people used to have a look from time to time.

As to a poster saying, what does it matter if Ch ina were to own 15% of it[there are people who try and find out these things], not sure I am going to try to say, if someone cant work that out for themselves. Perhaps it doesnt bother them.

Which Countries would we want to own our debt btw?
Unrealistic to think it would just be Canada, Australia and New Zealand. They might be the only 3 Countries some people might be happy with.

The Uk isnt saying.

Well surprise surprise, it may not want ordinary people to know.

Things in life are kept secret for reasons.

escaped

Oh not to be in the real world! I know it could never happened, due to our history etc, but I often wish we coud be an insignificant little island minding its own business, being self succificient in all ways, but peaceful and untouched by world events.

Maybe I'm getting old! But I've always liked to be self-contained and individualistic.

Yes I feel that way too.

If a person owes some money to a relative or friend, it alters that relationship. One way or the other or both.

Why this consrant rehashing, going on about Brexit. Shame those that did not understand what they were voting for, I did my research and had no doubt we would be better out and making our own decisions. I did not want Labour in but we are stuck with them for a bit, they have broken most promises but we live with it.

growstuff

fancythat

Of that, allegedly, [not officially verified] 15% is owed to China

So what?

I am curious to know if that is a genuine question?

You dont have to answer if you dont want to.

So are we just out of the EU “ for a bit”? Lets hope so. Its cost us billions. Foreign companies own most of our privatised utilities. So much for taking back control and all the other stupid soundbites - Chins owns our national grid. As for Eton educated ex hasbeen Brexit stirrers not being elites - pull the other one

Allsorts

Why this consrant rehashing, going on about Brexit. Shame those that did not understand what they were voting for, I did my research and had no doubt we would be better out and making our own decisions. I did not want Labour in but we are stuck with them for a bit, they have broken most promises but we live with it.

So how are we actually better off?

MaizieD

FriedGreenTomatoes2

We are just lied to constantly.

You certainly were. Lied to massively by the Leave campaigners.

And so we have Reform who will make everything right and line somebody’s pockets.
I have to buy a visa to visit my daughter and long queues to get into EU countries.
The EU still considers us a cash cow even though we are no longer members.