Israel Committing War Crimes - Israel - Gaza Part 4

It seems to me that this shame thing is getting way out of hand.
We can only feel shame for our own actions.
Muslims need not feel it for the atrocities done by hamas and Jews need not feel it for any actions by IDF.

Spot on, Oreo!
It's rather like the collective guilt Jews are supposed to carry for the cruxificion of Jesus Christ.
Should they all wear hair shirts because of what their Government is doing?
Should a Gazan child feel guilt for what was perpetrated upon Israeli babies and children?

As for Miriam Margolyes, she would claim to have eaten her own Grandmother if it got her some attention.
Well, she has been out of the limelight recently.

It seems to me that this shame thing is getting way out of hand.
We can only feel shame for our own actions.
Muslims need not feel it for the atrocities done by hamas and Jews need not feel it for any actions by IDF.
As for Miriam Margolyes, she would claim to have eaten her own Grandmother if it got her some attention.
As for the nonsense of shame for anything this government has done or will do, I voted for them to be in power but I wouldn’t feel personal shame, it’s not possible as when you vote you only have a very rough idea what a government will do.And it’s them doing something that you have no control over.
I think what Starmer has done, saying that in September the UK may recognise Palestine as a State was done to appease his own MPs but fortunately doesn’t matter much in any practical way.Which is a good job as there are still 20 hostages to get out.

Quote Caleo Wed 30-Jul-25 14:28:53
Either ,one would be ashamed to call oneself an Israeli, or Israelis are being kept in ignorance of what the Knesset is doing in Gaza.

Either, West Bank settlers are rabid nationalists, or they are ashamed of West Bank settlers who use violence or stealth to steal farms and water supplies from Palestinians.

In all cases Judaism holds much the same set of ethics as Christians, Muslims , seculars, and civilised peoples everywhere.

You too , ?

Either ,one would be ashamed to call oneself an Israeli, or Israelis are being kept in ignorance of what the Knesset is doing in Gaza.

Either, West Bank settlers are rabid nationalists, or they are ashamed of West Bank settlers who use violence or stealth to steal farms and water supplies from Palestinians.

In all cases Judaism holds much the same set of ethics as Christians, Muslims , seculars, and civilised peoples everywhere.

Whitewave
you ask me the question however, if I would ever feel shame at what my government is doing the answer will almost certainly be yes. How can I not, when I may be responsible for them being in power? I would never abrogate that responsibility.

You did not speak of Israeli Jews you said “Jews* , so all Muslims should feel shame if they live in Gaza ?

International hopes for a sustainable peace are mainly invested in the Palestinian Authority, based in Ramallah in the West Bank, which has formally accepted Israel’s right to exist for decades and is an enemy of Hamas.

In a significant move, the Arab League of 22 nations has this week put its weight behind a statement calling for Hamas to be disbanded and condemning its atrocity on October 7 2023, the first time many countries in the group have explicitly done so.

Oh dear.

I shall repeat the context that puts an entirely different slant on my post to what everyone is running away with.

So

Over many months now and in particular on the day I posted the comment about the PMs wife, I have been listening and watching many Jews commenting on the genocide in Gaza. On the day in question, I listened to two Jews. The first was an ex-PM, the second was a doctor and Israeli intellectual. Both abhorred what Netanyahu is doing. Another Jews is Miriam Margolyes. All hate what is happening in Gaza, all said they were ashamed to be Jews.

That is the context.

I then went on to say that I was wrong to assume how Lady Starmer felt and verbally withdrew the comment.

Now, that is the context.

I have never said that Jews should feel shame, but have simply repeated what Jews have been saying in various interviews etc.

If you ask me the question however, if I would ever feel shame at what my government is doing the answer will almost certainly be yes. How can I not, when I may be responsible for them being in power? I would never abrogate that responsibility.

Grantanow thank you so much ,

I hesitate to post this link but it offers an analysis of the starving child photo widely shared by the media presenting it as evidence of starvation in Gaza (which I believe does exist and is made worse by Hamas aid theft).

Things may not be as they seem.

david-collier.com/the-truth-behind-the-viral-gaza-famine-photo/

Claremont

Caleo

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

It depends if they support this genocide or not.

Do you feel the Germans who supported Hitler should have felt ashamed? I do.

Jews and genocidal maniacs are not the same,

Whitewavemark2

Oreo

Caleo

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

Actually Whitewavemark2 did.

Now post my post that puts it into context.

Indeed! If Grans ' allegations are to be taken seriously we must quote the original.

Excellent post Babs; spot on .

Jews should not feel ashamed of what Netanyahu is doing unless they support his actions and Muslims shouldn’t feel ashamed of what Hamas are doing unless they support their actions. And I think most moderate Jews and Muslims are united in wanting an end to the conflict and the hostages rescued. Afterall this isn’t about religion is about vile power grabbing men whose mission is far from Godly and more to do with geopolitics in the region, but citing religion makes them feel as if there are far loftier aims at play.

Oreo

Caleo

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

Actually Whitewavemark2 did.

Now post my post that puts it into context.

Quote Smileless2012 Wed 30-Jul-25 13:29:20
Thank you Annie; I was certain that Oreo's post was incorrect.

there was no mention of Muslims, so noticeable , all fault with
Jews , seems Hamas doesn’t for many here

Hamas surely are celebrating

all my Muslim friends and family condemn the October7 attacks and yet can understand the long historical context, and have great misgivings about how it was allowed to happen. And fair enough to have many questions on the subject

So, let’s blame the Israeli government for the horrific murderous raping attacks on innocent civilians at a music festival. We’ve all read these allegations. I find it abhorrent to slide these allegations into a rather self congratulatory post. It really is not a competition to see who has the most diverse family and friendship group.

it was allowed to happen because a group of men decided to attack, rape, murder, capture people because they were Jewish. Frankly even if Bibi Netanyahu opened the door for them, they didn’t need to, they chose to behave like psychopaths.

My friends cousin was one of the people murdered

Thank you Annie; I was certain that Oreo's post was incorrect.

Quote Smileless2012 Wed 30-Jul-25 13:12:51
Has anyone said that no Muslims need feel shame for what the government of Gaza planned and carried out Oreo? If so, please refer to the post or posts where this has been said.

Definitely not said, only Jews were singled out for shame and
Victoria Starmer , a Jew

^how terribly rude* I agree Claremont.

Has anyone said that no Muslims need feel shame for what the government of Gaza planned and carried out Oreo? If so, please refer to the post or posts where this has been said.

Have had the same Jewish friends and mentionned them numerous times for quite some time. And have been accused of having 'imaginary' friends, and now 'for every situation' - how terribly rude. Some of us do have a greater mix of friends than others- for so many reasons. Having family all over the world, of very mixed origins, religions, and nationalities, ethnicities too- is one, being open minded and not sectarian is another.

Very different situations, depending is a war or genocide is committted 'in the name of a group, or not. Hamas didn't commit the vile attacks of October 7th in the name of Muslim people. All my Muslim friends and family condemn the October 7th attacks, and yet can understand the long historical context, and have great misgivings about how it was allowed to happen. And fair enough to have many questions on the subject.

Honestly Claremont do you have friends for every situation that suits your point of view I wonder.
So no Muslims need feel shame for what the government of Gaza planned and carried out but in your view Jews should feel ashamed. Got it.

Oreo said 'I really don’t think most posters understand the hurt and anger caused to Israelis by the massacre perpetrated on innocent families by the governing body and its supporters of Gaza that terrible day.'

and I find this very wrong. I think we all do, very much so. The disproportionality of the response, which has now turned into the wholesale destruction of a whole people, an actual genocide or disastrous consequence for a whole people, losing their lives, losing their homes and probably losing their land and everything they called home, for generations, is what most of us truly find massively and catastrophically cruel, with no solution. And also the real worry that it is likely to cause massive damage to the Jewish people, there and all over the world. Some of our Jewish friends, born and bred there, who served in Kibbutz and the IDF in the past, and have moved away as they knew what Netanyahu has been planning for a long time- still have ACs and GCs there. And they are terrified for them, but are very supportive of Palestinians- and ashamed deeply. They make the comparison with the 1940s, and they are vilifed and called all sorts by other Jews who support this massacre- 'self-hating Jew and traitor' and worse. It does not deter them.

Quote AGAA4 Wed 30-Jul-25 10:45:57
Nobody blames the people of a nation for what it's government does. Once they are elected they make all the decisions.
I don't blame all Jews or all Muslims for what their leaders do.
The focus now as all news channels tell us is on what's happening in Gaza.
That doesn't mean I've forgotten about the hostages and I've mentioned how their families are suffering day after day.

I mentioned above how difficult this situation has become. Ideally we want Hamas out and a new government in Israel and Gaza. Nobody really knows how this can be achieved peacefully.

A post yesterday spoke of Victoria Starmer, born in England,
and shame

Nobody blames the people of a nation for what it's government does. Once they are elected they make all the decisions.
I don't blame all Jews or all Muslims for what their leaders do.
The focus now as all news channels tell us is on what's happening in Gaza.
That doesn't mean I've forgotten about the hostages and I've mentioned how their families are suffering day after day.

I mentioned above how difficult this situation has become. Ideally we want Hamas out and a new government in Israel and Gaza. Nobody really knows how this can be achieved peacefully.