So what do GNs think of Starmer’s decision to recognise Palestine as a state?

Idealistic ideas about an integrated society where Jews and Muslims play nicely together is not going to happen.

ronib

wwm2 so far around 62k dead souls in this war. Hamas is committing genocide.
Why not wait and see exactly what Netanyahu finds as a workable solution? We really do come across as lacking real information oka clueless.

The problem with that is that you are relying on a war criminal and someone committing genocide.

I would rather the world made its own mind up - which it has, and it doesn’t support Netanyahu and neither do I.

claremount - Yes it really is a question? Because if we are talking about now. Hamas military and armed civilians invaded Israel Oct 6th 2023 raping and killing innocent people, including children and babies, as well as taking hostages and starting the war. In response Israel invaded Gaza and they have every right to stay there and continue the war until Hamsas surrenders. Hamsas surrenders equals war over. If Israel wins the war, the war they did not start, they really have the right to the land. They may give it back like they have done in the past after previous wars.

But I suspect most people mean. when they say Israel stole the land, is that Israel stole all the land of the Palestinians.

Allsorts refers to that and asks the question

"Where do people believe Palestinians lived before Israel took their land."

Palestine has never been a country.Israel did not steal the Arabs/Palestinians land.It is a lie perpetuated by the Arabs who want to destroy Israel. In fact the area of Palestine, which is ancient Israel, has been colonized by numerous nations and has always had Jews living there as well as some other nationalities.

Why are the Jews called Jews? Answer because they come from the area now known as the West Bank, but before the Romans renamed it Syria Palestine it was Judah and Samaria.

Where do people believe the Jews lived before their land was colonised?

Before anyone posts that I have distorted the facts, please post the evidence as well.

Fortunately the Israeli nation does not need your approval in sorting out this mess which is on their doorstep and not yours. wwm2

“The Gaza Strip was first occupied by Israel at the beginning of what became known as the “six-day war”. Responding to intelligence reports that its neighbours were mobilising against it, Israel launched a series of pre-emptive strikes against Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

On June 5 1967, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) major general, Yeshayahu Gavish, commanded his troops to occupy the Gaza Strip, which was then under the control of Egypt. He did so in defiance of orders from Israel’s then defence minister, Moshe Dayan, who had warned against being “stuck with a quarter of a million Palestinians” in an area “bristled with problems … a nest of wasps”.

But once it had moved IDF troops into the Strip, the Israeli government followed a policy of breaking up Palestinian-populated areas by establishing military outposts, which then became civilian settlements.”

AGAA4

Idealistic ideas about an integrated society where Jews and Muslims play nicely together is not going to happen.

There are Palestinian living in Israel, they don’t cause problems.
All Israel wants is to be left alone and for the missile attacks on them which were constant up to and after 7th October.

Posted too soon, multitasking here,
To stop.

In 1970, Israel’s then Labour government established two “Nahal settlements”. Named after the Nahal brigade, founded by Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, these settlements were agricultural communities established by military force. By 2005, there were 21 civilian settlements in the strip, with a total estimated population of 8,600, living alongside a Palestinian population of around 1.3 million.

The settlers’ ideology at that stage did not include the sort of racist anti-Arab sentiments that have become prolific in the ultranationalist corners of the settler movement. But the disparities between the overpopulated Palestinian refugee camps and the flourishing Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip – protected by IDF troops – led to growing Palestinian resentment.

Disengagement from Gaza

Things began to change with the second intifada (uprising), which erupted in 2000 and led to a reassessment of Israel’s settlement policy. Security considerations and a desire to reduce confrontations between the IDF and Palestinian civilians necessitated a new policy of separation.

The Israeli government also wanted to maintain a majority-Jewish population in areas under its control. So the idea of separating off majority Arab areas under the control of a Palestinian authority was appealing to the government of the then prime minister, Ariel Sharon.

Sharon had previously been known as the father of the settlement project. But in 2004 he ordered the evacuation of all Israeli settlements from the Gaza Strip and four settlements in the north of the West Bank, a project which was accomplished in 2005.

The previously consistent alignment between the settler movement and the state came to an abrupt end. While the majority of Israelis supported the plan, the religious right was violently opposed.

The Jerusalem Post reported: “For Religious Zionists, who link Torah, people, and land, the state’s bulldozers felt like a theological betrayal.”

The “disengagement plan” had significant consequences on the settler movement which then fragmented. A militant racist wing emerged, which has since grown in power and influence.

After the 2022 Israeli national elections, two of the wing’s leaders, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, were included in Netanyahu’s cabinet. The pair have been able to use their leverage over the prime minister to influence the trajectory of the war in Gaza.

Oreo

AGAA4

Idealistic ideas about an integrated society where Jews and Muslims play nicely together is not going to happen.

There are Palestinian living in Israel, they don’t cause problems.
All Israel wants is to be left alone and for the missile attacks on them which were constant up to and after 7th October.

Not quite so straightforward as suggested.

Palestinian citizens in Israel possess Israeli citizenship and passports, but they face legal and social distinctions from Jewish Israelis. While they are citizens with legal rights to reside in Israel, they are often excluded from certain aspects of the Jewish welfare state and may experience discrimination. This leads to a situation where they have "passport citizenship" but may lack "democratic citizenship" and face challenges in fully integrating into Israeli society.

Israel's Nationality Law, amended in 1980, grants citizenship to those residing in Israel, but it also defines Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people. This creates a distinction where Palestinian citizens, while citizens, are not part of the "nationality" defined by the state, which is tied to Jewish identity, according to some sources.

Despite being citizens, Palestinian citizens of Israel may face discrimination in various areas, including access to resources, housing, education, and political representation.

While Jewish Israelis have legally enshrined collective rights as part of the Jewish nation, Palestinian citizens lack a clear and official legal status as a collective.

Google is you friend😊

Thank you Whitewave. It confirms what I thought. Palestinians will always be an underclass to the Israelis.

Starmer proposes to reward Hamas for 7th October. A Hamas spokesman has already identified recognition as an outcome of the massacre. Of course Labour want the Moslem vote which is now far larger than the Jewish vote.

I think they’re happy enough living in Israel or they would move into the West Bank.
They have jobs and houses in Israel and like any minority won’t feel as easy in the country as Jewish people there do.
The Palestinians living there aren’t causing any trouble.

Quote Grantanow Sat 09-Aug-25 10:17:27
Starmer proposes to reward Hamas for 7th October. A Hamas spokesman has already identified recognition as an outcome of the massacre. Of course Labour want the Moslem vote which is now far larger than the Jewish vote.

I thought not but change of mind now , it is a reward for
Hamas

wwm2 You are right about the Israelipreemptivestrike on Egypt. The Gaza strip was part of Egypt. Israel attacked and destroyed the Egyptianair force. If they hadn't had done this then the resulting aftermath of the war could have been a million times worse than Oct 6th.

Israel offered the Gaza strip and Sinai that they had captured back to Egypt. Egypt gladly accepted the Sinai back but told Israel that they couldkeep the Gaza Strip, we don't want it!

If they had known about theOct 6 event Israel may have done a preemptivestrike there, then people would be up in arms about that. But a lot of people and families would have been spared from the results of aterroristattack.

Arab who are Muslims or Christains or of no faith who live in Israel enjoy all the same rights as any other citizenof Israel. They are not restricted in any sense, in fact there are Arabs who are high positionswithin Israel i.e. as judges etc. Many also serve in the IDF voluntarily, because they are under no obligationto serve, unlike Jews.

The only restrictions I know of are on those who live in the West Bank, area A, which is actuallyunder the Palestine administration. The Palestine Authority of Area hasnot held any elections since 2006,President Mahmoud Abbasholds power there, and planned elections have been repeatedly cancelled. Incidentally Israelis are not generally allowed into Area A. Whereasthe residents of Area A do have more freedom of movement.

Google can be your friend, but there is also lots of false information and distortedfacts there too.

However I am still waiting for evidence of Israelstealing the land from the so-called Palestinians. Which apparentlyis what this conflict is about.

Phil, this isn't a university seminar group

You have also missed many, many past threads on Gaza - ongoing, before I joined in early 2023. In many of those discussions events you describe have been explored, maps shown, different historical events explored. You are assuming ignorance and are patronising imo.

What you have done, and yes I have read all you have written

and have a background/qualifications in history and lifelong political theory and practice

Is to take a series of events from one particular POV and spun them into a narrative that is convincing, but only if you accept your chosen events and actions as the only ones to be considered.

If you or indeed anyone chose to take actual real events/actions as you have but chosen your examples differently:

A different overall narrative would emerge.

I'm not going to engage with you as this is not a university seminar group and I think it invalid to try and get a discussion going with a biased narrative at its heart.

Yes, any narrative would be biased, but stop pretending yours is the "right" or "only" one

wyllow3

That was impressive!

Whitewavemark2

wyllow3

That was impressive!

Impressive? It was ludicrous 😄
Only the chosen few can discuss anything historical or present in Israel? I have read many by both you and others on this forum, no doubt googling like mad.
phil51 unlike you, knows what she/he is talking about.
What Wyllow3 is trying to do is shut down any debate on the subject other than her own and chosen others.Something often levelled at others I may add.
There is nothing University level about phil51 comments they are clear and easy to understand.

Wyllow3 excellent post.

Oreo excellent comment

Oreo

Whitewavemark2

wyllow3

That was impressive!

Impressive? It was ludicrous 😄
Only the chosen few can discuss anything historical or present in Israel? I have read many by both you and others on this forum, no doubt googling like mad.
phil51 unlike you, knows what she/he is talking about.
What Wyllow3 is trying to do is shut down any debate on the subject other than her own and chosen others.Something often levelled at others I may add.
There is nothing University level about phil51 comments they are clear and easy to understand.

No, the opposite , I am trying to keep the discussion open.

I am trying to keep the discussion focussed on what is happening now in the present (yes with references too the past where appropriate)

And be at ta level that is both intelligent but also inclusive of posters generally.

You say: phil51 comments they are clear and easy to understand.

Surely, but they are also extremely biased,

and he is presenting it as the "only" narrative

The comments were both intelligent and also inclusive of posters generally!
Extremely biased? And you aren’t of course.Naturally.
You’re not fooling anyone btw.

However many historical 'facts' are dredged up nobody can deny the atrocities being perpetrated in Gaza now.
History books and records can be written with a bias too.

phil's comments can be disagreed with Oreo just as anyone's can however, telling a poster that their response is ludicrous especially when it's intelligent and also inclusive of posters generally is rather churlish IMO.

but it looks as if some are denying the atrocities being perpetrated in Gaza now AGAA or seeking to justify them.

This is the letter written by Arthur Balfour, the Foreign Secretary to Lord Rothschild in 1917.
I know some people have said they are not interested in history, but this seems to be very relevant to subsequent events, especially post 1948.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations, which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, 1t being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.