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I thought the Labour party was meant to be the political party for and of the 'woking class'

(196 Posts)
M0nica Sun 07-Sept-25 11:00:57

The most shocking part of the Angela Rayner debacle has been the way people have constantly gone on and on about her 'humble working class' origins, as if it was a amazing for a politician to have such a background

But Rayner is a member of the LABOUR party, the party set up by 'working class' people to represent themselves and in times past, a large proportion of their MPs had worked down mines, in shipyards and factories, so why should her social origins be of any interest at all. They should be normal for the Labour party.

In 1979 16% of MPs had worked in manual occupations, now it is down to 3%. that is spread across all major parties, including SNP. But the majority are likely to be in the Labour party.

Perhaps the failure of current governments and immediately past governments is due to the fact that they are no longer representative of the ordinary working population.

Too many lawyers (14%) and political organisers (17%). Too few, nurses, IT specialists, shop workers, warehouse operatives and the like.

All figures from a House of Commons Library research document, Social Background of MPs 1979-2019 researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf

MayBee70 Sun 07-Sept-25 16:40:44

Primrose53

Anniebach

Angela Rayner, Alan Johnson, Nye Bevan were supported by
Unions as were other Labour MP’s.

Angela Rayner is female yes ? heaven knows how many MP’s had sex in early teens, Angela was pregnant! ! ! it happens to girls , Angela has been judged much harsher than any male MP

Alan Johnson, his parents died he then lived with his sister, Angela was a carer for her mother,

AJ’s father walked away from the family when Alan was very young. His Mum had to bring up him and his sister alone in slum housing with no support from the father. She became very ill and eventually died when Alan was about 12. His sister brought him up even though she was still a child herself but she did not want him to go into care. A social worker eventually found them better accommodation and their lives improved a bit. He credits his sister in all his memoirs with bringing him up and making him the man he became.

I believe that Wes Streeting had a pretty difficult childhood, too. Just waiting for the daggers to be aimed at him now…

Retread Sun 07-Sept-25 16:48:24

I haven't read the whole thread, but "the Labour party being for the woking class" (in the title) is very funny!

fancythat Sun 07-Sept-25 16:48:52

I think it says a lot about attitude to class when people are horrified by the fact that plumbers earn decent money

I dont know if you are talking about me.

But if me, you have missed my point.

My point is several actually.
1. The op's heading mentions working class.
Always important on a thread to know exactly who we are speaking about.
So, are plumbers still counted as working class?
And who exactly now is.

2.If Labour is supposed tob e about the working class, then should they be looking after shop workers more than plumbers?

3.Society keeps changing.
What was the norm 20 years ago in the Uk, may no longer be so.
So who exactly should Labout be "protecting"?

Or have they worked out too that things have shifted so much that many of their core voters of yesteryear, now earn way above other workers?

fancythat Sun 07-Sept-25 16:51:08

I think it says a lot about attitude to class when people are horrified by the fact that plumbers earn decent money.

tbh, I think your attitude is outdated as well.
Which posters precisely, or which posts and words precisely, have led you to that, I would say, rather outdated attitude?

M0nica Sun 07-Sept-25 16:56:18

Iam64

Seriously, £40 an hour for s plumber or other highly skilled trades people is, well, Luxury

£40 an hour, roughly £1,600 a week, approximately £77,000 a year (I assume a 46 week year, 4 weeks holiday and 2 weeks to cover illness, waiting in for gasmen, dentist etc).

From £77,000 taake the cost of buying and paying for a van, and all the running cost, plus tools and all sorts of insurance from van to public liability, health protection, professional fees etc. Say, net £50,000.

The median salary (that is a salary where half the population earn more and half earn less) is about ££36,700. For a highly skilled tradesman, who has done an apprenticeship and needs to keep up to date and often work in uncomfortable and inconvenient places, that seems reasonable.

Sago Sun 07-Sept-25 16:58:53

Why do we have to use a class to define ourselves, I really dislike it?
As soon as someone tells me they’re working class I switch off.
I’m not interested in anyone’s class, I’m just interested in the person they are.
I have a friend who always has to tell people she meets she is from a working class background…….why?

fancythat Sun 07-Sept-25 17:01:56

Why do we have to use a class to define ourselves, I really dislike it?

Me too.
Hopelessly outdated.

Is a plumber still "working class".
Should Labour be taking a special interest in them?

Iam64 Sun 07-Sept-25 17:02:12

MOnica, we may be at cross purposes. I’d expect to pay at least £70. One of my family is a plumber. The company he works for charge £110 call out .
I’m with you on training and running costs. I did mean £40 an hour for the skill level needed is low

growstuff Sun 07-Sept-25 17:12:59

There's a problem if the Labour Party is only supposed to be about the "working class".

Firstly, it's not really an appropriate term in today's world, but I'll stick with it for something better.

Claiming that the Labour Party is only for those on the bottom of the pile ignores social mobility. It's precisely because the Labour Party and socialism in general has been successful the most people these days don't live in vermin-infested hovels with poor quality/inadequate food and insecure, poorly paid work.

The lives of those around the average or below income have been transformed over the last century.

Now here's the conundrum. Once people no longer have to struggle for the basics, are they supposed to forget about people worse off than they are? Aren't they supposed to care about social justice or equality? If they have enough money for a new car or a holiday, are they supposed to wear hair shirts and beat themselves with twigs?

If people want to vote Labour (or, more importantly, stand as a Labour MP), do they have to have lived in the slums (even better in a shop doorway or a gutter)? Do they have to have attended Bash Street Comp personally? Do they have to have come from a family which has been on benefits for generations?

It's possible to have a comfortable life but to witness the lives of others and want to do something about it.

Anniebach Sun 07-Sept-25 17:36:05

👏👏👏growstuff

Doodledog Sun 07-Sept-25 18:14:39

fancythat

^I think it says a lot about attitude to class when people are horrified by the fact that plumbers earn decent money.^

tbh, I think your attitude is outdated as well.
Which posters precisely, or which posts and words precisely, have led you to that, I would say, rather outdated attitude?

No, I wasn't talking about you or anyone else in particular. I would have said so or quoted you if I were.

What is it about 'my attitude' that you consider dated?

Doodledog Sun 07-Sept-25 18:18:40

fancythat

^Why do we have to use a class to define ourselves, I really dislike it?^

Me too.
Hopelessly outdated.

Is a plumber still "working class".
Should Labour be taking a special interest in them?

I don't think Labour does take a special interest in plumbers (or others) based on class. They always talk about 'working people', which I see as including anyone who works for a living and pays income tax (which is usually the context in which 'working people' are mentioned) regardless of how they do so.

I don't know about voters, but LP members are predominantly 'middle class' (graduates with professional jobs) - much more so than CP members.

Doodledog Sun 07-Sept-25 18:23:08

Well said, growstuff.

Your last sentence particularly resonates. The 'champagne socialist' slur, and the idea that anyone who votes Labour or is a party member or MP should eat gruel and drink beer is very irritating, as is the idea that the better off should vote Tory, or that voting Tory is a sign that someone has 'made it'. People can, and do, think for themselves and vote according to their world view, regardless of their income or occupation.

Graceless Sun 07-Sept-25 18:27:19

MayBee70

Yes let’s have more working class MP’s. Preferably women. So we can mock their accent, poor grammar and clothes sense. And euphorically watch them fall from Grace because they don’t know how to go about legal tax avoidance…

Hear hear!

Witzend Sun 07-Sept-25 18:27:27

IMO it’s the non-working class we should be more concerned about.
And IMO it’d be an excellent thing if all MPs should be required to have had for at least 5 years, a job that had nothing to do with local government, politics or unions.

fancythat Sun 07-Sept-25 18:27:36

Doodledog

fancythat

I think it says a lot about attitude to class when people are horrified by the fact that plumbers earn decent money.

tbh, I think your attitude is outdated as well.
Which posters precisely, or which posts and words precisely, have led you to that, I would say, rather outdated attitude?

No, I wasn't talking about you or anyone else in particular. I would have said so or quoted you if I were.

What is it about 'my attitude' that you consider dated?

The first line
"I think it says a lot about attitude to class when people are horrified by the fact that plumbers earn decent money".

In real life I dont know a single person like that.
Cant say I have read that online anywhere either.
And even talking about class at all feels dated.

All seems a bit 10 or 20 years ago to me.

fancythat Sun 07-Sept-25 18:29:07

IMO it’s the non-working class we should be more concerned about.

You mean those who cant find jobs?

Doodledog Sun 07-Sept-25 18:33:53

Well on this very thread there have been comments about how the fact that plumbers (they are always used as representatives of the working class grin) earn 'good money' as though that is strange.

I agree that the conversation with my friend was a long time ago though - more than 20 years, as we lost touch when we moved away - but I have definitely heard similar sentiments since then. I'm not sure that things have moved on a lot. When Keir Starmer (or Rachel Reeves) mentioned 'working people' there was uproar, and it is Angela Raynor's background that is mentioned before her achievements.

Anniebach Sun 07-Sept-25 18:38:05

Tony Benn ? Private schooling, inherited a peerage which he fought against and did change the law.
Owned a rather large London property and had inherited a country estate.member of Fabian Society.

Labour Party member

woodenspoon Sun 07-Sept-25 18:54:34

Plumbers you say. Well we’ve recently had plumbers in our home. Arrived at 8am and left at 7.00 pm. He worked extremely hard and earned every penny in our opinion. Wish there were more like him.

TerriBull Sun 07-Sept-25 19:30:37

So! I've just been reading a critique by Jason Cowley, editor of The New Statesman of a book namely "The Dispossessed The Working Class and Their Instinct for Survival" by Frenchman Christophe Guilluy which is a lot about The Gilets Jaunes, but has much resonance here and the US insomuch as we are often mirror images of one another as far as our social demographics are concerned.

Jason Cowley states that he was introduced to the work of the French author in 2017 at a dinner hosted by Labour Together, the network that later became the vehicle through which Keir Starmer won the leadership of the Labour Party. An essay by Christopher Caldwell about Guilluy was circulated among guests who wanted to understand better why so many working class voters loathed the progressive liberal left and had voted for Brexit. Long before Brexit, Guilluy was analysing how globalisation had enriched a hypermobile elite while leaving many of those who lived in what he calls "peripheral France" far from the globalised wealth of the cities. Guilluy, once close to the communists but today non-aligned, had worked as a consultant on housing projects in Paris and observed how the old working class could no longer afford to live in the culturally diverse capital city, or other metropolitan centres such as Lyon or Bordeaux. The old class structures had been supplanted by something new and much closer to America. France was now a country of "winners or losers" Guilluy was to write in The Dispossessed, this elite were to proselytise about diversity and multiculturalism but were utterly detached from the lives and struggles of the working class, in his words "they were the winners of globalisation but had closed the door on the working classes" and isn't that a fact that plays out in London, New York, Los Angeles and all the other major regional cities in our respective countries. In fact nothing captured that more than when Macron at the inauguration of Station F in Paris, the biggest business start up campus in Europe said this "there are people who succeed and people who are nothing" that's shockingly been expressed in many forms Hillary Clinton's "Basket of Deplorables" "the thick and the uneducated flag waving underclass" "The white working class girls who almost deserved to be abused and raped for so long because they were feckless" but nothing could be done about that in the interests of social cohesion. The left behind.

I don't think there has been a lot of difference in the middle ground of politics over the past 20 years, it's so often been an inter changeable milieu where politicians such as the Mandelsons/Osbornes for example have been found rubbing shoulders in the same social setting. Whatever the present government have to say, it's really just more of the same, with their umpteen freebies, intransigence or stupidity even as to how they don't or won't see just how that is perceived, detached as they ever were from the problems of the unaffordability of basic necessities facing great swathes of the electorate, we haven't really moved on from the fatuous "we're all in it together" In a way I'm sorry Angela Rayner's gone, she came from a background not too dissimilar from the abandoned girls of Rotherham, a baby at 16 whilst simultaneously foolish and brave, she trounced all those low expectations to arrive where she did, but she broke the rules.

My gut feeling is that the middle ground of political parties have had their day and will become an irrelevance, people will swing either further to the right (Reform) and further to the left (Corbyn/Sultana). People may well see the two extremes as the last refuge as to where they may pin their colours. I don't think the outcome will be pretty either way. I'm keeping an eye on France because I think that scenario will arrive there first. They're also marginally deeper in debt than us so the IMF could well be dictating any fiscal strategy to whoever is at the helm.

MaizieD Sun 07-Sept-25 20:38:50

^ I'm keeping an eye on France because I think that scenario will arrive there first. They're also marginally deeper in debt than us so the IMF could well be dictating any fiscal strategy to whoever is at the helm.^

It won't be the IMF that dictates to France, it will bee the EU Central Bank. Like it did to poor Greece. though I think it is unlikely as the ECB has loosened up a bit in the last few years.

It won't happen to the UK because we can't run out of money. As we have our own sovereign currency we can create whatever is needed. Absolutely pointless to 'borrow' from the IMF.

We have 'created' large amounts of money in the past 25 years through 'Quantitative Easing' which was basically the Bank of England issuing more money to commercial bank reserves. It was done to prevent the banks failing in the Global Financial Crisis and to pay for Covid. Something like £900 billion of money which was labelled as debt, though as the BoE is owned by the nation it doesn't particularly need to be paid off as it's like owing money to yourself. The creation of this money has had absolutely no effect on inflation and was desperately needed.

The real problem is that the money wasn't spent as productively as it should have been and ended up enriching a few while making little difference to most people's lives.

The government could do it again if necessary though it would be wise to use the money productively, not to inflate the bank balances of already wealthy people.

I keep saying over and over again that spending comes before taxation. This is a fact. As the government is the source of all our money (apart from a weeny amount of foreign earnings) if it didn't put any money into the economy there would be no money for it to tax back.

So leave the IMF out of your worries. It won't happen.

Mollygo Sun 07-Sept-25 20:39:04

Well said growstuff
👍👍

Allira Sun 07-Sept-25 20:51:58

M0nica

Allira

As a working class person myself I have never been invited to a dinner party which imo is very much a middle class cultural thing.
Oh!

But aren't we all middle-class now?
Quote from Lord Prescott

What is a dinner party? If a friend comes round and stays for a meal, Is that a dinner party?

It used to mean a formal meal with everyone dressed up and all the best china and glass out. That sort of dinner party, except in political and royal circles, went out in the 1970s.

I mean, even Samantha Cameron, talked about having 'kitchen suppers' as their way of entertaining, even when David Cameron was Prime Minister.

It means the neighbours/ friends coming round, cooking three courses, eating at the table in the dining room if you have one, and using serving dishes, not plonking it on the plates and expecting everyone to eat it all up.

That sort of dinner party, except in political and royal circles, went out in the 1970s.
We must have been Royal!

Everyone clean and tidy but not dressed up.

A jolly get-together.

Doodledog Sun 07-Sept-25 20:58:40

We still do it. Maybe not quite as often as before, and there are less likely to be couples now, but we still have people round to eat. I'm having friends round on Tuesday. Mr D is going to the pub, as it's more of a girly night, but we'll eat at the table, and I've planned a menu. We don't call it 'having a dinner party', but I suppose it comes to the same thing. We didn't marry till the 80s, so we must have started out being behind the times, as we've always 'had people round', as it's known in this house.