I thought the Labour party was meant to be the political party for and of the 'woking class'

MaizieD

growstuff

Attlee, who possibly did more for the "working class" than other Labour politician in the 20th century, came from a relatively wealthy family, went to pubic school and Oxford and was a barrister.

Exactly!

I f he were in office now I couldn't see him trying to out-Reform Reform.

Interesting article about Attlee's involvement with the Windrush:

www.durham.ac.uk/research/current/thought-leadership/2023/06/unravelling-the-windrush-myth-the-confidential-government-communications-that-reveal-authorities-did-not-want-caribbean-migrants-to-come-to-britain/

Casdon

MaizieD

in the party that was formed from and by people who share A's background.

Are you deliberately forgetting/ignoring the fact that middle class socialists had a role in setting up the Labour Party, MOnica? It has never been an exclusive party of 'the workers'.

I think we've now got the message that you don't like Angela Rayner, though...

The whole premise is strange I think, it refers to the thinking in the fifties and sixties rather than today. Labour represents people who believe in or lean towards the achievement of a more equal society now, whatever their occupation or background.

No I am not forgetting them. You cannot. Their modern equivalents have taken the party over. This is why there was such a fuss about AR's 'working class' origins.

I believe political parties should, as far as possible, be representative of the whole electorate, but all of them have origins that mean they are seen as inclining to one group rather than another. I won't bore you with the details of how they evolved, but the Conservatives essentially represented the aristocratic and landowning and rural vote, the Liberals represented the towns, trade, industry and the professions and were aways the 'radical' party. With the extension of education and the franchise a new and very large sector of the population got the vote. Those who worked in factories, shops, domestic service or were skilled tradesmen and the Labour party arose to represent them.

However, while both Conservatives and Liberals still doff their hats to their history. the Liberal party remains radical and the Conservatives still own a loyalty to vested interests, the Labour party seem to have completely ditched theirs. Their MPS come predominantly from urban based professions like law and paid political workers.

Reform is drawing its votes from those groups that were traditionally Labour and feel that the party has long stopped listening to them or representing them because they say things that challenge those now running and representing the party.

I do not agree with most of Reform policies, but I can see only too well why those who support it do so.

I don’t think people are thinking as they put their cross in the box about the ethos on its foundation of the party they are voting for M0nica.

growstuff

MaizieD

growstuff

Attlee, who possibly did more for the "working class" than other Labour politician in the 20th century, came from a relatively wealthy family, went to pubic school and Oxford and was a barrister.

Exactly!

I f he were in office now I couldn't see him trying to out-Reform Reform.

Interesting article about Attlee's involvement with the Windrush:

www.durham.ac.uk/research/current/thought-leadership/2023/06/unravelling-the-windrush-myth-the-confidential-government-communications-that-reveal-authorities-did-not-want-caribbean-migrants-to-come-to-britain/

That's a bit shocking, though understandable in a way.

But, whatever the government reservations/objections the Windrush people had an ostensible welcome (see the Pathe News film. I wonder who was responsible for its tone?) and appear to have been found jobs.

But don't think I'm ignorant of the massive wall of racism they endured once here.

, I cannot speak for England but I certainly can for Labour Party and Wales.

South Wales strong coal mining, Ironworks, factories voted for the first independent Labour MP, Keir Hardie.
I certainly can recall in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s children were told “Education is the way out of the Coal mines ‘etc, I was told how important the 11 plus was to stay out of Kayser Bondor . Again I heard it from Blair 2001.
the way forward was definitely Education

MOnica Reform might pretend to have the "working class" interests at heart, but they themselves are very far from working class and their ideas, if followed to logical conclusions, would harm the "traditional working class". That's why Reform concentrates on identity politics, especially race. Reform doesn't have an economic argument, so it concentrates on the one issue it knows will stir up the "traditional working class" because it always has.

The whole "north London champagne drinking socialist" stereotype was started by the opposition.

MaizieD

growstuff

MaizieD

growstuff

Attlee, who possibly did more for the "working class" than other Labour politician in the 20th century, came from a relatively wealthy family, went to pubic school and Oxford and was a barrister.

Exactly!

I f he were in office now I couldn't see him trying to out-Reform Reform.

Interesting article about Attlee's involvement with the Windrush:

www.durham.ac.uk/research/current/thought-leadership/2023/06/unravelling-the-windrush-myth-the-confidential-government-communications-that-reveal-authorities-did-not-want-caribbean-migrants-to-come-to-britain/

That's a bit shocking, though understandable in a way.

But, whatever the government reservations/objections the Windrush people had an ostensible welcome (see the Pathe News film. I wonder who was responsible for its tone?) and appear to have been found jobs.

But don't think I'm ignorant of the massive wall of racism they endured once here.

I found the difference between the welcome for "colonials" (who held British passports) and Italians/Poles interesting. There was always a racist and protectionist element in the Labour Party and Trades Unions, which is what is being exploited today by Reform.

Anniebach

, I cannot speak for England but I certainly can for Labour Party and Wales.

South Wales strong coal mining, Ironworks, factories voted for the first independent Labour MP, Keir Hardie.
I certainly can recall in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s children were told “Education is the way out of the Coal mines ‘etc, I was told how important the 11 plus was to stay out of Kayser Bondor . Again I heard it from Blair 2001.
the way forward was definitely Education

How many other Labour MPs had been miners?

Incidentally, my ex-husband's father, grandfathers (and ancestors before them) had been Welsh miners.

My ex-husband's father went to evening classes and became a mining engineer and university lecturer. As soon as he left the mines behind, he became a staunch Conservative.

Quote growstuff Tue 09-Sept-25 15:18:37
Anniebach
, I cannot speak for England but I certainly can for Labour Party and Wales.

South Wales strong coal mining, Ironworks, factories voted for the first independent Labour MP, Keir Hardie.
I certainly can recall in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s children were told “Education is the way out of the Coal mines ‘etc, I was told how important the 11 plus was to stay out of Kayser Bondor . Again I heard it from Blair 2001.
the way forward was definitely Education
How many other Labour MPs had been miners?

I can Only recall Nye Bevan and he became involved with the unions when young

growstuff

The whole "north London champagne drinking socialist" stereotype was started by the opposition.

However, it is far more polite than what they call the other main party.

Casdon

I don’t think people are thinking as they put their cross in the box about the ethos on its foundation of the party they are voting for M0nica.

Of course they aren't, But people vote for parties, or rather the policies they espouse - and those are affected by the philisophical ethos of these parties

Whenever I see or hear historian David Olusoga I just switch off. He can never discuss anything without shouting over people and getting irate. He seems to have a massive chip on his shoulder and whatever the topic he always brings it round to racial matters. It is time he moved on.

My friend came to the UK from the island of St Kitts when she was about 5 with her 2 siblings. Their parents came to work here then sent for the kids. If I remember rightly her Dad came as a bus driver and her Mum as a nurse. All have stayed here ever since and have built happy lives. Surely if this is such an awful country they would have gone back to the West Indies. If you speak to older members of the Windrush generation they will tell you they may have suffered some racial abuse but were generally accepted and felt settled here. Even they say it’s time to move on.

Primrose53

Whenever I see or hear historian David Olusoga I just switch off. He can never discuss anything without shouting over people and getting irate. He seems to have a massive chip on his shoulder and whatever the topic he always brings it round to racial matters. It is time he moved on.

My friend came to the UK from the island of St Kitts when she was about 5 with her 2 siblings. Their parents came to work here then sent for the kids. If I remember rightly her Dad came as a bus driver and her Mum as a nurse. All have stayed here ever since and have built happy lives. Surely if this is such an awful country they would have gone back to the West Indies. If you speak to older members of the Windrush generation they will tell you they may have suffered some racial abuse but were generally accepted and felt settled here. Even they say it’s time to move on.

That's a shame. I watched his documentary about Covent Garden a few weeks ago, which was interesting. You've obviously missed all his work about "non-racial" matters.

You seem to be missing the point (probably because you haven't read any links). There was without any doubt discrimination against black immigrants compared with European immigrants. The official documents show that.

I assume you've also missed the cases of people being deported after decades because their parents didn't apply for the correct documents at the time. Amelia Gentleman did some thorough research and journalism on the issue.

In the context of this thread, the trade unions, who supported the Labour Party, were opposed to immigration in the late 1940s and 1950s - that's also well-documented.

62Granny

Many MPs are career politicians who have studied politics as part of their University education unfortunately, some may have worked outside jobs but with industry , the mines and shipping closing all over the country I think the hands on worker politicians who have been union people have gone, Angela Rayner did come up that way she was a young teenager when she had her first child , so yes she is a working class person, I am not saying what she has done is correct but I bet many of us would not know ourselves if we were paying the correct amount of tax on a house purchase and would believe what we were told.

This is why our politicians are of such a low calibre these days. The vast majority have no real working experience outside politics. A PPE degree then straight into a job as a political researcher networking their way around parliament making useful contacts. Then parachuted into an empty seat in a safe constituency and bingo, there they are as an MP with no idea how the real world functions.

FoghornLeghorn

62Granny

Many MPs are career politicians who have studied politics as part of their University education unfortunately, some may have worked outside jobs but with industry , the mines and shipping closing all over the country I think the hands on worker politicians who have been union people have gone, Angela Rayner did come up that way she was a young teenager when she had her first child , so yes she is a working class person, I am not saying what she has done is correct but I bet many of us would not know ourselves if we were paying the correct amount of tax on a house purchase and would believe what we were told.

This is why our politicians are of such a low calibre these days. The vast majority have no real working experience outside politics. A PPE degree then straight into a job as a political researcher networking their way around parliament making useful contacts. Then parachuted into an empty seat in a safe constituency and bingo, there they are as an MP with no idea how the real world functions.

Yes, yes, and yes again

Does one have to be starved of food to speak of hunger?

Anniebach

Does one have to be starved of food to speak of hunger?

No, but it helps if you have experience of it and what it does to people.

I cannot pretend to understand what ife is like for those people trapped in Gaza, being starved and bombed by Israel.

Of course my reason, can construct the scenario, imagine how it must feel, but to really understand how terrible it must be, it would be arrogant and inhuman of me to say I can really understand how dreadful life is for such people.

Those working to help them, aid workers, and the like, may not experiance the hunger, but will, yes, have close to a real understanding of how these people feel.

In the broader state of things, we can recognise the problems and needs, but among the majority who can imagine and feel we need those who have experienced it.

The problem is all political parties across the board on every subject, have people who haave studied the report, learn the statistics, and spoken briefly to a few of those on the receiving end, but all parties lack those in their elected ranks with the broader exprience of having worked in industry, on the factory floor, in the managers office, in a busy hospital ward as a nurse or doctor, or taught in a school for a significant period of time.

MOnica we are not going back to the days of Nye Bevan, there will never be coal miners becoming politicians , perhaps a doctor may change jobs.