Not you, growstuff although you obviously needed a Very Serious Answer!
It was MaizieD who was rude.
I'll leave the Big Girls to it.
😂😂😂
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I thought the Labour party was meant to be the political party for and of the 'woking class'
(196 Posts)The most shocking part of the Angela Rayner debacle has been the way people have constantly gone on and on about her 'humble working class' origins, as if it was a amazing for a politician to have such a background
But Rayner is a member of the LABOUR party, the party set up by 'working class' people to represent themselves and in times past, a large proportion of their MPs had worked down mines, in shipyards and factories, so why should her social origins be of any interest at all. They should be normal for the Labour party.
In 1979 16% of MPs had worked in manual occupations, now it is down to 3%. that is spread across all major parties, including SNP. But the majority are likely to be in the Labour party.
Perhaps the failure of current governments and immediately past governments is due to the fact that they are no longer representative of the ordinary working population.
Too many lawyers (14%) and political organisers (17%). Too few, nurses, IT specialists, shop workers, warehouse operatives and the like.
All figures from a House of Commons Library research document, Social Background of MPs 1979-2019 researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf
FFS do you have to keep attacking me?
What is your problem?
I used to read your posts and think they were quite informative and interesting but now they're just plain rude.
Gransnet is fraught and, quite honestly boring enough at times and needs a few tongue-in-cheek posts as we used to have a while ago.
Allira
growstuff
How should people behave to be eligible to vote Labour?
It would appear that having anything beyond basic education and eating with friends round a table disqualifies people.Sorry! That was then.
Now you have to have a degree in law or PPE from Oxford, Cambridge or a Russell Group University followed by time spent in a university in the USA or the LSE.
You should not just own your "family home" but also a second home in a desirable location where the hoi polloi undesirable locals have been driven out because property prices have shot up.
Your children will, of course, attend the local State school which is amongst the top of the league tables. It took time to choose the location of that family home with that in mind. There are always private tutors if the school fails them.
Sometimes you shop in Aldi or Lidl but keep quiet about your Ocado deliveries.
You believe in equality.
Well, that's about as clear as mud. 
I thought one had to be "working class" to vote Labour - otherwise, you're a champagne socialist. It's OK to vote Reform (so it seems) because they stand up for the working people - errmm - even though they obviously don't. Farage (ex - Dulwich College and London Metal Exchange trader) and all those new young councillors with politics degrees. How come they don't attract the same kind of criticism as Labour?
Allira
growstuff
How should people behave to be eligible to vote Labour?
It would appear that having anything beyond basic education and eating with friends round a table disqualifies people.Sorry! That was then.
Now you have to have a degree in law or PPE from Oxford, Cambridge or a Russell Group University followed by time spent in a university in the USA or the LSE.
You should not just own your "family home" but also a second home in a desirable location where the hoi polloi undesirable locals have been driven out because property prices have shot up.
Your children will, of course, attend the local State school which is amongst the top of the league tables. It took time to choose the location of that family home with that in mind. There are always private tutors if the school fails them.
Sometimes you shop in Aldi or Lidl but keep quiet about your Ocado deliveries.
You believe in equality.
Goodness, you do have a big chip on your shoulder, Alira
Or are we supposed to find that portrait amusing?
Do tell us more about the left’s delusions, Grantanow. People are always mentioning them in a derogatory way without really saying what they are.
At the moment I feel that the delusions rest firmly with Blue Labour, who are on the right…
growstuff
How should people behave to be eligible to vote Labour?
It would appear that having anything beyond basic education and eating with friends round a table disqualifies people.
Sorry! That was then.
Now you have to have a degree in law or PPE from Oxford, Cambridge or a Russell Group University followed by time spent in a university in the USA or the LSE.
You should not just own your "family home" but also a second home in a desirable location where the hoi polloi undesirable locals have been driven out because property prices have shot up.
Your children will, of course, attend the local State school which is amongst the top of the league tables. It took time to choose the location of that family home with that in mind. There are always private tutors if the school fails them.
Sometimes you shop in Aldi or Lidl but keep quiet about your Ocado deliveries.
You believe in equality.
The industrial working class has been diminishing in number since the 1920s. Labour can't just depend on a reducing class vote. It has to attract a wider electorate. The Left are deluded about that.
Isn’t Lathyrus really saying that the current Labour government doesn’t appear to be working towards a decent life for all?
We know Labour achieved a great deal historically, but it really isn’t happening now to any meaningful extent.
It won’t improve until they let go of the terrible neoliberal economic ‘orthodoxy’, which they show no signs of doing.
growstuff
How should people behave to be eligible to vote Labour?
It would appear that having anything beyond basic education and eating with friends round a table disqualifies people.
Well, you have to have a cloth cap, a whippet and call dinner tea.
Stereotyping.
Actually, calling dinner dinner is probably Non-U. Posh people call it supper.
Supper is really a couple of rich tea biscuits and a mug of cocoa.
Oh I agree, they achieved great things in the past which is why my family were staunch Labour supporters.
I was talking about this government.
Lathyrus3
I guess people believed that the Labour Party would work towards a more equal society. Or at least one in which nobody was unable to access the basics of life, decent food, clean water, a decent home, health care, a safe environment.
So the disillusionment is all the greater 🙁
If you compare equality now with the beginning of the 20th century, it's worked. There can't be many people now who have outside toilets and no running water, but there were before WW1. There were people who couldn't afford basic healthcare or education.
The situation has regressed in recent years, but it really is not true that the Labour Party hasn't worked towards a more equal society.
I guess people believed that the Labour Party would work towards a more equal society. Or at least one in which nobody was unable to access the basics of life, decent food, clean water, a decent home, health care, a safe environment.
So the disillusionment is all the greater 🙁
How should people behave to be eligible to vote Labour?
It would appear that having anything beyond basic education and eating with friends round a table disqualifies people.
Well, family comes round for dinner but DS often ends up taking over in the kitchen anyway!!
Last time we had anything that might be considered a dinner party was when DD’s In-laws-to-be came for dinner and asked if grandparents could come as well.
First and last time I’ve ever used a wallpaper table for a sit down meal.
Now it’s nibbles or a buffet, and we are the grandparents!
Lathyrus3 😁
I don't care what you call it as long as I don't have to cook!
Anyway, it's not a matter of class in Government, or shouldn't be.
However, some have had quite deprived starts to life but still managed to gain an education.
If you put what you say into a historical context Terribull, all the signs point to revolution, or at least a change in the order of society.
We tend to have more informal drinks and nibbles now!
No-one is up to cooking any more.
^ 'had people round'^
Yes. But make sure you wear your ball-gown and elbow-length satin gloves!
Allira
M0nica
Allira
As a working class person myself I have never been invited to a dinner party which imo is very much a middle class cultural thing.
Oh!
But aren't we all middle-class now?
Quote from Lord PrescottWhat is a dinner party? If a friend comes round and stays for a meal, Is that a dinner party?
It used to mean a formal meal with everyone dressed up and all the best china and glass out. That sort of dinner party, except in political and royal circles, went out in the 1970s.
I mean, even Samantha Cameron, talked about having 'kitchen suppers' as their way of entertaining, even when David Cameron was Prime Minister.It means the neighbours/ friends coming round, cooking three courses, eating at the table in the dining room if you have one, and using serving dishes, not plonking it on the plates and expecting everyone to eat it all up.
That sort of dinner party, except in political and royal circles, went out in the 1970s.
We must have been Royal!
Everyone clean and tidy but not dressed up.
A jolly get-together.
We were definitely working class and friends, neighbours and relatives came round for dinner all the time.
I guess we stayed working class in spite of that because there were only two courses😬
Or maybe because we called it tea😂
It’s nothing to do with being working class or any other class Starmer was elected by tactical voting against the Tories
In this constituency Lib Dems got the benefit it was anyone but the Tory candidate it didn’t matter if you were a cleaner or the MD get rid of the conservatives
Reform is getting votes across the voter spectrum
We still do it. Maybe not quite as often as before, and there are less likely to be couples now, but we still have people round to eat. I'm having friends round on Tuesday. Mr D is going to the pub, as it's more of a girly night, but we'll eat at the table, and I've planned a menu. We don't call it 'having a dinner party', but I suppose it comes to the same thing. We didn't marry till the 80s, so we must have started out being behind the times, as we've always 'had people round', as it's known in this house.
M0nica
Allira
As a working class person myself I have never been invited to a dinner party which imo is very much a middle class cultural thing.
Oh!
But aren't we all middle-class now?
Quote from Lord PrescottWhat is a dinner party? If a friend comes round and stays for a meal, Is that a dinner party?
It used to mean a formal meal with everyone dressed up and all the best china and glass out. That sort of dinner party, except in political and royal circles, went out in the 1970s.
I mean, even Samantha Cameron, talked about having 'kitchen suppers' as their way of entertaining, even when David Cameron was Prime Minister.
It means the neighbours/ friends coming round, cooking three courses, eating at the table in the dining room if you have one, and using serving dishes, not plonking it on the plates and expecting everyone to eat it all up.
That sort of dinner party, except in political and royal circles, went out in the 1970s.
We must have been Royal!
Everyone clean and tidy but not dressed up.
A jolly get-together.
Well said growstuff
👍👍
^ I'm keeping an eye on France because I think that scenario will arrive there first. They're also marginally deeper in debt than us so the IMF could well be dictating any fiscal strategy to whoever is at the helm.^
It won't be the IMF that dictates to France, it will bee the EU Central Bank. Like it did to poor Greece. though I think it is unlikely as the ECB has loosened up a bit in the last few years.
It won't happen to the UK because we can't run out of money. As we have our own sovereign currency we can create whatever is needed. Absolutely pointless to 'borrow' from the IMF.
We have 'created' large amounts of money in the past 25 years through 'Quantitative Easing' which was basically the Bank of England issuing more money to commercial bank reserves. It was done to prevent the banks failing in the Global Financial Crisis and to pay for Covid. Something like £900 billion of money which was labelled as debt, though as the BoE is owned by the nation it doesn't particularly need to be paid off as it's like owing money to yourself. The creation of this money has had absolutely no effect on inflation and was desperately needed.
The real problem is that the money wasn't spent as productively as it should have been and ended up enriching a few while making little difference to most people's lives.
The government could do it again if necessary though it would be wise to use the money productively, not to inflate the bank balances of already wealthy people.
I keep saying over and over again that spending comes before taxation. This is a fact. As the government is the source of all our money (apart from a weeny amount of foreign earnings) if it didn't put any money into the economy there would be no money for it to tax back.
So leave the IMF out of your worries. It won't happen.
So! I've just been reading a critique by Jason Cowley, editor of The New Statesman of a book namely "The Dispossessed The Working Class and Their Instinct for Survival" by Frenchman Christophe Guilluy which is a lot about The Gilets Jaunes, but has much resonance here and the US insomuch as we are often mirror images of one another as far as our social demographics are concerned.
Jason Cowley states that he was introduced to the work of the French author in 2017 at a dinner hosted by Labour Together, the network that later became the vehicle through which Keir Starmer won the leadership of the Labour Party. An essay by Christopher Caldwell about Guilluy was circulated among guests who wanted to understand better why so many working class voters loathed the progressive liberal left and had voted for Brexit. Long before Brexit, Guilluy was analysing how globalisation had enriched a hypermobile elite while leaving many of those who lived in what he calls "peripheral France" far from the globalised wealth of the cities. Guilluy, once close to the communists but today non-aligned, had worked as a consultant on housing projects in Paris and observed how the old working class could no longer afford to live in the culturally diverse capital city, or other metropolitan centres such as Lyon or Bordeaux. The old class structures had been supplanted by something new and much closer to America. France was now a country of "winners or losers" Guilluy was to write in The Dispossessed, this elite were to proselytise about diversity and multiculturalism but were utterly detached from the lives and struggles of the working class, in his words "they were the winners of globalisation but had closed the door on the working classes" and isn't that a fact that plays out in London, New York, Los Angeles and all the other major regional cities in our respective countries. In fact nothing captured that more than when Macron at the inauguration of Station F in Paris, the biggest business start up campus in Europe said this "there are people who succeed and people who are nothing" that's shockingly been expressed in many forms Hillary Clinton's "Basket of Deplorables" "the thick and the uneducated flag waving underclass" "The white working class girls who almost deserved to be abused and raped for so long because they were feckless" but nothing could be done about that in the interests of social cohesion. The left behind.
I don't think there has been a lot of difference in the middle ground of politics over the past 20 years, it's so often been an inter changeable milieu where politicians such as the Mandelsons/Osbornes for example have been found rubbing shoulders in the same social setting. Whatever the present government have to say, it's really just more of the same, with their umpteen freebies, intransigence or stupidity even as to how they don't or won't see just how that is perceived, detached as they ever were from the problems of the unaffordability of basic necessities facing great swathes of the electorate, we haven't really moved on from the fatuous "we're all in it together" In a way I'm sorry Angela Rayner's gone, she came from a background not too dissimilar from the abandoned girls of Rotherham, a baby at 16 whilst simultaneously foolish and brave, she trounced all those low expectations to arrive where she did, but she broke the rules.
My gut feeling is that the middle ground of political parties have had their day and will become an irrelevance, people will swing either further to the right (Reform) and further to the left (Corbyn/Sultana). People may well see the two extremes as the last refuge as to where they may pin their colours. I don't think the outcome will be pretty either way. I'm keeping an eye on France because I think that scenario will arrive there first. They're also marginally deeper in debt than us so the IMF could well be dictating any fiscal strategy to whoever is at the helm.
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