Breaking Peace in the Middle East? Continued thread.

Unfortunately, at the same time, he denied the Genocide.

GrannyGravy13

AGAA4

Meanwhile the ICJ have said Israel are obliged to allow aid into to Gaza.
There is a 'fatal combination' of disease, injuries and famine the WHO says.
The problems there will carry on for generations.
This alone condemns Netanyahu without all the very strange accusations about Epstein. Just muddies the waters.

I imagine that the security if the aid workers is the problem at the moment.

Hamas and other gangs are in control and will hoover up aid and medical supplies.

Aid has to be for all, not just those with weapons and who are stronger.

It was also mentioned on TRIP ( and I must admit that I didn’t give it my full attention) is that there are warring factions in Gaza that Netanyahu was supporting financially and they were taking some of the aid ( if someone has listened to it properly I’m happy to be corrected on this).

Well I guess They would put it as "No more pussyfooting around..." but They seem to be grabbing for all of the West Bank right now too - currently stopping Palestinians getting to their olive trees to harvest them and upping the attack level by settlers and grabbing at Syria again.

I have come to the conclusion by now that it's necessary for anyone with any connection to them to make it plain in about the first one or two sentences they utter "They're nothing to do with me. I thoroughly disapprove of them" - as I suppose we can only think people agree with them or at least are not bothered unless they state straight off they're nothing to do with them/disapprove.

It's not an easy situation to deal with and I can think of a man from Palestine (but he is not Palestinian) and his British wife in the circle I'm in and I'd want to know his views on all this before being able to decide on whats what. I couldnt feel easy in my mind going to any events he organises unless he distances himself from what is going on there. If he doesnt distance himself - then I wouldnt feel right hearing him NOT disapprove of them....

Off to check out the Facebook page of the man concerned to see if he's distancing himself from them - or saying nothing about this.

Considering just how bad things are in Palestine now - I think there really is only one conclusion one can come to re people that live/have lived there if they don't visibly disapprove of what's happening there.

Which Palestine do you mean? As you call Israel and the West Bank and Gaza all Palestine it’s hard to know.
Presumably this man is really an Israeli Jew. Just say it.

Considering just how bad things are in Palestine now - I think there really is only one conclusion one can come to re people that live/have lived there if they don't visibly disapprove of what's happening there.

You cannot judge people by what they do or do not post on Facebook!

Off to check out the Facebook page of the man concerned to see if he's distancing himself from them - or saying nothing about this.
🤔

Oreo

Which Palestine do you mean? As you call Israel and the West Bank and Gaza all Palestine it’s hard to know.
Presumably this man is really an Israeli Jew. Just say it.

Like a lot of people I do refer to all of Palestine as Palestine.

It was all very confusing way back when I thought "How can there be two countries in the exact same position - one called Palestine and one called Israel?" Until I clicked it is all Palestine still.

That is probably what he would call himself - and there is absolutely nothing on his FB page saying words to the effect of "Sorry - all - this is all nothing to do with me. I don't agree with it".

You’re the first and only person I have ever heard of that doesn’t call Israel by its name.
Whatever floats your boat, but it’s confusing on threads.

You obviously mix in very different circles to me. That's all it is.

Your circles call it that. Mine call it Palestine. Others refer to "Gaza and the occupied West Bank" - which your circles probably call those names and call the rest of Palestine your preferred name.

I find it makes life more difficult because of the censor or two on this thread. Perhaps everyone should stand up and go "I'm not a censor - I'm in the clear....I never censor things just because I personally don't like them. Not me yer honour honest....." - rather than the usual "Oh...it musta been GransNet...honest". .......

Perhaps those who are the censors on thread or know for sure who they are could stop that and then one doesn't have to deal with this...

The Roman called the whole Palestine, I believe, hence Jesus of Palestine.
However, the land of Israel pre-dates that.

More than one Roman!!

CariadAgain

You obviously mix in very different circles to me. That's all it is.

Your circles call it that. Mine call it Palestine. Others refer to "Gaza and the occupied West Bank" - which your circles probably call those names and call the rest of Palestine your preferred name.

I find it makes life more difficult because of the censor or two on this thread. Perhaps everyone should stand up and go "I'm not a censor - I'm in the clear....I never censor things just because I personally don't like them. Not me yer honour honest....." - rather than the usual "Oh...it musta been GransNet...honest". .......

Perhaps those who are the censors on thread or know for sure who they are could stop that and then one doesn't have to deal with this...

One wonders which circle Cariad moves in------. a circle which insist 'Palestine' is a geographical not a political category'

I suggest Cariad as a Welshwoman is conscious that Wales is a geographical/ historical category. And as such should be an independent politically . And that Palestine is like Wales. If so I fully support Cariad.

But with the proviso that Israel is a done deal, unfortunate as it is, and has to be recognised as a state.

CariadAgain has said she was born in England

I have just checked Chat GPT and asked it what is meant by Palestine and it's reply was "Palestine is still commonly used to describe the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river, including what are now called Israel, West Bank and Gaza".

So yep....I mean exactly the same as Chat GPT means. I'd say that's authoritative enough for most people.

I am British - ie English in my case. English mother (she'd call herself "Cornish" - but she's English), English father.

Chat GPT's answer to when Palestine was first called Palestine gets a bit long and involved - with various references. But concludes with "so the name Palestine in some recognizable form dates back over 3,000 years".

In some peoples usage there are personal preferences as to whether they use the commonly known name or another name they personally prefer and one can often tell where they are from/who they support by the name they choose to use.

Blimey, so yet again Jews are being denied their homeland…

What THEY say is their "homeland". Corrected that for you.

A very obvious first question to any of them individually would be "Why and when did you or your parents move from Palestine in the first place?" I'd expect them to look very blankfaced - as I don't suppose they/their personal family have ever lived there. They're welcome to produce their/their parents birth certificate to prove it obviously....and we could see that they/their parents had been born there in Jerusalem or wherever else it was in Palestine to prove they really are Palestinians.

Interestingly enough - I've just been watching a documentary where one of the Zionist arguments that Palestine is their country and not a problem is that they argued it was an empty country/no-one much living there and the narrator went on to produce it most definitely was populated and the proof (including from a British direction) that this was indeed the case. Basically it boiled down to "We're saying it's empty and it's ours - so we can move in on it" and very conveniently ignored the evidence it's someone else's - but not theirs.

One cannot equate a religion with a race. Jewishness is a religion. Christianity is another religion - but that doesn't mean I can turn round and go "I can say any Christian country of my choice IS my country" and then just go and settle there. Thinks - I'm on my way to Denmark again now and tell them "You're a Christian country too - so you must be my country if I decide you are and I don't have to do any applying for a passport etc etc".

Meanwhile - I think it's best if these distractions stop and we get back on track of "What is happening in Palestine and is there anything we can do to stop all this warfare/land-grabbing/etc?"

Borders and countries come and go, some through negotiations like the formation of Israel, some through war which is currently the situation in Ukraine.

I should imagine the Ottoman Empire was pretty annoyed at losing this part of the Middle East after 400 years.

Serious question = have you got any sympathies with the Palestinians? Do you see and understand they are being restricted in their own country and are having their own country chipped away at bit by bit? Are you sorry for what is happening to them? Do you want their lives to get back to normal?

Israel has been a state since 1948 so have to accept that.
I can't accept Israel taking more land and ousting the people who live there from their homes.

AGAA4

Israel has been a state since 1948 so have to accept that.
I can't accept Israel taking more land and ousting the people who live there from their homes.

That is how I feel, no more incursions and land grabs into the West Bank.

I am all for a two State solution, unfortunately I think that is a long way off.

Personally - I'd go all the way back to "right the wrongs" to the 1940s. There are still people carrying round keys to houses that got stolen from them back then - or if they're now dead = their (now adult) children own those houses instead.

Just remembering in my own personal life the first thing that ever got stolen from me would have been in grammar school - so we're talking the 1960s then - yep....I'd still like back the cut-out map thing of Britain that went missing from my satchel (though I'd have no use for it now - other than breaking it over the head of the thief concerned) and I'd still like to find a way to punish the thief. Theft being unavenged and recompense needing to be made goes back decades and the slate does not "get wiped clean". History doesn't get conveniently rewritten and offenders forgiven/let off the hook whilst there's still "living memory".

Maybe some of the people who had their houses stolen off them, for instance, managed to nip back under cover of darkness and at least set fire to and destroy their house - wouldnt get their house back for them...but would make them feel a whole lot better in their minds. But there'd still be the loss of their house..

So many Jews had their homes and all their belongings stolen from them by the Nazis that I wonder why their descendants are doing the same thing to the Palestinians.

GrannyGravy13

Borders and countries come and go, some through negotiations like the formation of Israel, some through war which is currently the situation in Ukraine.

I should imagine the Ottoman Empire was pretty annoyed at losing this part of the Middle East after 400 years.

I expect the Romans were pretty fed up too, all those rebellions when they just wanted to occupy and dominate and change the name from Judea.
Then the Byzantines
Then the Islamic conquest
The Crusades
Etc.

AGAA4

So many Jews had their homes and all their belongings stolen from them by the Nazis that I wonder why their descendants are doing the same thing to the Palestinians.

With you on that one for sure!

A very good use of the phrase "Do as you would be done by"....but I had that personal experience I mentioned of someone's mother who got punished decades back for speaking Welsh at school - and ever since has been looking for ways to have a go at people for NOT speaking Welsh (ie chucking me out of communal conversations by swopping from the communal language and trying to get that Council workman unfairly dismissed for not speaking Welsh). She should have been the first person to understand (because her mother had been on the receiving end of trouble for not speaking someone else's desired language) - but she was pulling the same sort of "use language to create trouble" stuff that she was complaining about.

What the Nazis did then should have created empathy in their hearts and the hearts of their descendants - but nope....and many are still repeating the bad behaviour of the past.

People should learn from the past and then move on forward. My German friend I had years back couldnt really forgive her mother for having been in the Nazi Youth - though I pointed out she'd probably not been given any option...but that didnt mean she necessarily supported it. In fact mother was there busily handmaking an apron as a present for her daughters English friend (ie me) and neither her mother nor I raised the subject of the past. We had both moved on.

The mature way to be is to learn lessons from the situation and move on. My mother never did learn to forgive the Germans....but my armed forces father was busily making it very plain that the last type of job he wanted me in was the armed forces and he was paying out his money surreptitiously to do things like helping to fund a peace meeting that I'd been astonished to see him turning up at.

As the human race goes on - we are supposed to grow out of war and oppressing other people.