Pro Palestinian crowds shrieking and yelling at the Aston Villa Park Stadium

I think your post just confirms what I was saying Babs. Ireland and the UK were two sovereign states dealing with dissident groups within their own territories, agreeing to bring to trial members of those groups who carried out or supported violent acts.

I can’t see the connection in the suggestion that the UK might have carried out bombing on a cooperative neighbour country as retaliation for the acts of a disassociated group.

The comparison was utterly irrelevant and unfair on the Irish Government of that time.

Hamas functions as the de facto governing authority in the Gaza Strip but is not a recognized sovereign government because Palestinians have no sovereignty, they are also referred to as terrorists quite liberally until the subject matter demands they incorrectly be called a government.
So the comparison with the IRA which was the terrorist arm of the political group Sin Fein is worth making.

Oh I see now rereading your post StoneofDestiny.

I thought you were making a comparison of two things that were the same ie an attack by the Government of Gaza and an attack by the Government of Ireland and the retaliation that would occur.

If you’re not making Government to Government comparisons I don’t really see the point of your post.

growstuff

Caleo Some of the Maccabi anti-Arab chants go beyond "fun". Rape and killing aren't topics for fun, especially given the situation in Gaza and the West Bank. Not only that, but in Amsterdam, they weren't confined to the ground itself, but the wider city and even people of Arab appearance who weren't fans.

I think Celtic and Rangers were also violent and murderous. I used Rangers and Celtic as a means to compare the differences in scale and culture with Israel and Palestine.

It is important we all understand what motivates people.

Wasn't one of the chants that the Gaza schools are closed because the children are dead?
Taunting and mocking.

Caleo Some of the Maccabi anti-Arab chants go beyond "fun". Rape and killing aren't topics for fun, especially given the situation in Gaza and the West Bank. Not only that, but in Amsterdam, they weren't confined to the ground itself, but the wider city and even people of Arab appearance who weren't fans.

Important to note that one factor that makes a huge difference between sectarianism in Glasgow, and sectarianism in Israel and Palestine is that for Israelis and Palestinians, land itself is a religious value, whereas in Glasgow Catholics and Protestants no longer live in religiously segregated parts of the city.

growstuff

Oreo

Yes StoneofDestiny I can agree with that too.Unfortunately tho antisemitism is now rife in the UK and many European countries simply because some people cannot differentiate between the government of Israel and Jews generally.

People like me have being saying for ages that people can't differentiate between the government of Israel and Jews. There are people who conflate every criticism of Israel with antisemitism. It appears that you've finally grasped that.

People like the Rev Hayley Ace (and her husband) and that activist in London who was warned by police (but it turned out he'd done that kind of thing before) don't do those who are seriously concerned about antisemitism any favours.

Maccabi Tel Aviv fans have a reputation for thuggery. Maybe the club board can make an effort to clean up their own fans' behaviour because people are seeing through the antisemitism line which is being spun.

Well said Growstuff.
However does anybody take seriously football rowdies ?Shouting and fighting at football matches seems to be part of the fun.

I say so , however I remember when Glasgow as a decent place to live was troubled by animosity between Catholics and Protestants, and the hostilities were carried into matches between Rangers and Celtic.

I think peoples views are often the product of their own personal background

Some maybe. Most of us are influenced by experience and studying current affairs. I've been to both Israel and Palestine and the disparity between both states was striking. The difference in attitudes was striking and the unbelievable number of American settlers was eye opening.

CariadAgain

Oreo - this is where I think peoples views are often the product of their own personal background. Would be interesting to know what other peoples personal background is?

I'm British (English in my case) and not an adherent of any particular religion - though I've been in various Christian churches over the years. Only ever went once to a synagogue and came out astonished that no-one had spoken a word to me or anything as I recall (though I'd gone in response to an open invite and was waiting to see who would greet me/smile/explain things - and there wasn't anyone). That's the nearest I've ever gone - apart from the friend I have that I didn't know regards herself as a Jew (and who is extremely strongly against all this).

So - it is the case that many people will be influenced by their own personal background and we have no idea what background most posters on here are and what the chances are that they are looking at this whole situation totally dispassionately - or otherwise. I'm quite open - I was influenced by mine - ie a British military father who was there in Palestine at the time of the Nakba and came back horrified by it and always was clear that Palestine must be referred to as Palestine etc. Hence it took years for me to realise what other people meant when they referred to a country called Israel and I looked at the map and could only see a country called Palestine in that area.

Yep....land thieves are all the same to me too - whether it be a bit of someone else's garden or grabbing for someone else's country.

I'm very open about where I stand on this - and why....

Not a well organised congregation in that particular synagogue then.
Some religious venues are good at welcoming visitors and
sight -seers. I was a guest at a local mosque where a young man member of the congregation had been delegated to welcome and explain all about it to visitors.

Israel did not get the hostages released. That was done by the US. Israel must have killed many of the hostages with indiscriminate bombing.
I don't understand how anyone can think that razing almost every building, including hospitals and schools, to the ground and killing many thousands of people is justifiable

Absolutely. Even some family of the hostages were outraged by the actions of the IDF. The whole world was and remains outraged. If anybody is not outraged by the mass slaughter of innocents they frankly need to seek a moral compass and do some serious reflection.
The annihilation of Gaza has always been the Israel Government aim. The endless land grabbing by 'settlers' who are also destroying the very livelihood of Palestinians is well documented. Israel will never be happy until they have taken over the whole area like some 'manifest destiny'.

Oreo

Well unlike you CariadAgain I wouldn’t allow myself as a mature woman to continue to let the views of my father influence me in any way once past being a child/teenager.Not that he ever tried to anyway.
We must all think for ourselves.

But everybody is influenced by significant others during childhood. Childhood is when most of our basic attitudes are learned, for better or for worse.

It's good that Oreo is aware that she has basic learning and feels she can choose to change that early learning. Sometimes people have to pay £££££s to a therapist to dispel early learning that is holding them back.

Do you have data Oreo, to demonstrate the recent rise in UK anti-semitism as compared with the recent rise in Islamaphobia, to support your assertion above?

I think you are wrong to imply that the Irish government acted in the same way as the government of Gaza. Although they may have wished for a united Irekand at no point did they as a government initiate violent acts

In no way did I state or even imply that!

Oreo

Well unlike you CariadAgain I wouldn’t allow myself as a mature woman to continue to let the views of my father influence me in any way once past being a child/teenager.Not that he ever tried to anyway.
We must all think for ourselves.

....and, to me, it's obvious that I would clearly have then gone on to think things through for myself as an adult!!!!!!!

So - I then decided I agreed - after my own thinking about it...

Just because I didn't mention the episodes where he queried the Armed Forces - whilst he was still in them. So I learnt that missing out on getting his due promotion in them meant he turned round to a high-up giving a speech about how to get promoted and went "Sir...please sir...I've done exactly what you said...three times now.....and I've still not got my promotion yet. Where is it?" and he got that promotion. His retirement from that brought him going after them (successfully) for extra pension because they had made him substantially deaf with their heavy gun noise - and then successfully guiding all his mates in the same position to get that money too.

Does that explain the main message I got from him was "You're intelligent too - so be a questioner..... and then, when you have questioned and succeeded - help other people do the same".

Well unlike you CariadAgain I wouldn’t allow myself as a mature woman to continue to let the views of my father influence me in any way once past being a child/teenager.Not that he ever tried to anyway.
We must all think for ourselves.

Oreo - this is where I think peoples views are often the product of their own personal background. Would be interesting to know what other peoples personal background is?

I'm British (English in my case) and not an adherent of any particular religion - though I've been in various Christian churches over the years. Only ever went once to a synagogue and came out astonished that no-one had spoken a word to me or anything as I recall (though I'd gone in response to an open invite and was waiting to see who would greet me/smile/explain things - and there wasn't anyone). That's the nearest I've ever gone - apart from the friend I have that I didn't know regards herself as a Jew (and who is extremely strongly against all this).

So - it is the case that many people will be influenced by their own personal background and we have no idea what background most posters on here are and what the chances are that they are looking at this whole situation totally dispassionately - or otherwise. I'm quite open - I was influenced by mine - ie a British military father who was there in Palestine at the time of the Nakba and came back horrified by it and always was clear that Palestine must be referred to as Palestine etc. Hence it took years for me to realise what other people meant when they referred to a country called Israel and I looked at the map and could only see a country called Palestine in that area.

Yep....land thieves are all the same to me too - whether it be a bit of someone else's garden or grabbing for someone else's country.

I'm very open about where I stand on this - and why....

I have to protest your analogy with Ireland StoneofDestiny.

Although there were some IRA supporters within the Irish parliament, the Irish government never attacked Northern Ireland or planted bombs in mainland Britain.

Indeed members of the Parliament who were discovered to have been involved in an arms plot were prosecuted and convicted under Irish law.

The attack on Israelis was carried out by the government of Gaza.

I think you are wrong to imply that the Irish government acted in the same way as the government of Gaza. Although they may have wished for a united Irekand at no point did they as a government initiate violent acts.

Israel did not get the hostages released. That was done by the US. Israel must have killed many of the hostages with indiscriminate bombing.
I don't understand how anyone can think that razing almost every building, including hospitals and schools, to the ground and killing many thousands of people is justifiable.

One evil act by a terrorist group? Are you serious! Hamas were the government of Gaza and btw very supported by the people of Gaza up to that, and maybe after for all we know, tho they won’t have a lot of support now of course.
There was no other way for Israel to act but to go in to Gaza, try and get hostages released, which by and large they have done and to get hamas out of power.No other way.If there had been then it would have been tried.Hamas could have given the hostages back over a year ago and asked for a peace deal.They didn’t.So…I won’t ever agree with you, nor you with me.

Quick check - the Ben Gurion Canal is the one they want to build across Gaza - for trade purposes (THEIR trade).

...and yes....there darn well would have been a "grab for Gaza" anyway. It was all planned anyway - and the reason seems to be they want to build that other canal for trade purposes going across Gaza. They have wanted to build that canal anyway and have their "nice little holiday resort by the sea".

The Hamas attack was just an excuse to lash out at Gaza and another one would have been found if that hadn't been available to use.

StoneofDestiny

*and blame all Jews in the world including everyone in Israel for the war unleashed on Gaza by Hamas*

Oreo - the ‘war’ was not unleashed on Gaza by Hamas. Israel unleashed a war on the people of Gaza using the abhorrent actions of Hamas on October 7th as their excuse to do so.
That is like annihilating the population of Ireland and Irelands infrastructure because of the terrorist bombings by some IRA or UDA terrorists. It is not acceptable to kill innocents and destroy the means of survival of those who remain. One evil act does not in any civilised world justify a disproportionate response. There is no justification for what has happened and is happening in Gaza anymore than there was any justification for what happened on October 7th.

Yep...I read that sentence with disbelief and incredulity - ie the one about "war unleashed on Gaza by Hamas" and thought "Hasn't she read how this started in the first place - ie tracing back to when a part of Palestine got handed over to them and they've been grabbing for more ever since?"

Should we put it in capital letters - ie "They've been grabbing for land ever since the 1940s and they're not going to stop grabbing for other peoples land unless/until they get all of what they regard as 'Greater Israel' "? There's times when I think "Are they going to stop even then - or will they find some religious text somewhere or other to justify carrying on grabbing whatever/wherever they want?"

The war on the Palestinians hasn’t stopped, just reduced. Yesterday I watched footage of Israelis pouring concrete into a well spring on Palestinian land which means they have no water to irrigate their land or give to their livestock.

What sort of person does that.

Every day I could put up instances like this.

Israelis should hang their heads in shame at these acts of evil.

This has bit by bit been continuing since 1948.

Civilians are never to blame, and international laws dictate that infrastructure that supports them should not be destroyed, that aid should be readily available, and safe passage from harm provided. The Israeli government broke all these laws.
And I will repeat a question I have posed before if by chance a Hamas commander became holed up in a school in Tel Aviv, presumably using civilians as shields. Would the IDF use a bunker bomb?