The third place - vanishing?

I do not know if Football Stadiums can be counted as a third place but on the news this morning it was announced that they are having their rates increased.

The example they gave was The Emirates (Arsenal) is going from £1.4 million per annum to over £4 million per annum - ouch!

When we moved to our current home 30 years ago there were four pubs and a former Working Mens Club (which was was, in effect, a pub) in the not very large village. The WMC and one pub have been replaced with housing, a third pub is now a private house and a fourth has been empty for at least five years (and is rotting away completely neglected much to the annoyance of the locals). Only one remains and it has a bad reputation..

What social life there is is centred on the little community centre, but obviously its not open daily.

Most of the local villages were developed in the 19th C as a result of the great expansion of coal mining in the area. So no beams and horse brasses in the few remaining 19th C pubs that are still open, nanna8.

BlueBelle

Strange I ve never ever heard the term around my area perhaps it’s a city based thing

Just a 'buzz word' invented by a sociologist.

What about churches?
Ours are social hubs, concert venue, Warm Spaces etc.
As well as places of worship.

Sometimes these words and phrases are not the correct definitions but catch on anyway.

GrannyGravy13

I do not know if Football Stadiums can be counted as a third place but on the news this morning it was announced that they are having their rates increased.

The example they gave was The Emirates (Arsenal) is going from £1.4 million per annum to over £4 million per annum - ouch!

I doubt anyone’s heart will bleed for Arsenal FC when they pay individual players in excess of £10 million a year. Kai Havertz is paid over £14 million a year.

Club turnover for 2024 was over £600 million but they stlll recorded a loss of almost £18 million due to a wage bill of £328 million, up 40% on the previous year. The wage bill is set to increase to £400 million this year.

www.spotrac.com/epl/arsenal-fc/payroll

www.footballinsider247.com/stefan-borson-this-is-how-much-arsenals-wage-bill-has-increased-after-latest-deals-completed/

Business rates pale into insignificance among the wage greed in football. It’s obscene.

www.footballinsider247.com/ranked-premier-leagues-top-five-wage-bills-after-man-united-finalise-paperwork/

midgey

But how many of us have actually been into a pub lately? I certainly haven’t.

I agree.

Norah

midgey

But how many of us have actually been into a pub lately? I certainly haven’t.

I agree.

Well, some of us have. How decadent.

Good food, good company 😁

PaynesGray

GrannyGravy13

I do not know if Football Stadiums can be counted as a third place but on the news this morning it was announced that they are having their rates increased.

The example they gave was The Emirates (Arsenal) is going from £1.4 million per annum to over £4 million per annum - ouch!

I doubt anyone’s heart will bleed for Arsenal FC when they pay individual players in excess of £10 million a year. Kai Havertz is paid over £14 million a year.

Club turnover for 2024 was over £600 million but they stlll recorded a loss of almost £18 million due to a wage bill of £328 million, up 40% on the previous year. The wage bill is set to increase to £400 million this year.

www.spotrac.com/epl/arsenal-fc/payroll

www.footballinsider247.com/stefan-borson-this-is-how-much-arsenals-wage-bill-has-increased-after-latest-deals-completed/

Business rates pale into insignificance among the wage greed in football. It’s obscene.

www.footballinsider247.com/ranked-premier-leagues-top-five-wage-bills-after-man-united-finalise-paperwork/

It’s the enormity of the increase, no heart bleeding involved.

Maybe you have more sympathy for the pub in Devon whose rates have gone from £9,000 to over £70,000 per annum.

Pre budget one in ten pubs were not profitable, now with the new regs it is one in three (according to an item I have just watched on TV)

This Labour government is not a government for business, whatever, however they are trying to spin it.

Allira

Norah

midgey

But how many of us have actually been into a pub lately? I certainly haven’t.

I agree.

Well, some of us have. How decadent.

Good food, good company 😁

Not decadent. Choice.

I go in pubs 2/3 times a month, not to drink but to eat although wine does feature.
However if prices keep increasing as they have that might have to be reconsidered.

I’d like to see worked example of these alleged increases using the information in the link I gave above. Can you do that please as I’m not inclined to believe what’s printed in the agenda-driven Daily Mail.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2025-retail-hospitality-and-leisure-factsheet/budget-2025-retail-hospitality-and-leisure-factsheet

None of the case studies described there show anything like that.

I'm not alone in my mistrust. A You Gov poll conducted for Reuters shows the Daily Mail is one of the least trusted of all news outlets.

PaynesGray

I’d like to see worked example of these alleged increases using the information in the link I gave above. Can you do that please as I’m not inclined to believe what’s printed in the agenda-driven Daily Mail.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2025-retail-hospitality-and-leisure-factsheet/budget-2025-retail-hospitality-and-leisure-factsheet

None of the case studies described there show anything like that.

I'm not alone in my mistrust. A You Gov poll conducted for Reuters shows the Daily Mail is one of the least trusted of all news outlets.

How about the Guardian, BBC, BBPA (beerandpub.com) all carrying the closure of pubs and loss of jobs this year?

As others have already, said there have always been pub closures.

Again, can you please explain the alleged £50,000 rise in a pub's business rates.

Other factors may be involved in a business closures.

The problem with lazy journalism, and this applies to all outlets, is that they don't question the detail. Someone claims they are going to be badly affected and it's just re-reported.

It was exactly the same over farmers and IHT where people who do look at the detail were able to explain that the change would affect few farms other than the very wealthiest. Dan Neidle of the independent Tax Policy Associates put it into perspective demonstrating that a farming couple couuld pass on £3m of assets without any IHT.

Paul Johnson, the director of the IFS said "The changes will affect a remarkably small number of some of the most valuable farms."

But let's say a pub restaurant was genuinely facing increased costs of £50,000. It's less than £1,000 a week, less than £140 a day for seven day a week trading. It would be a poor business in terms of footfall that couldn't recoup that through small increases in food and drink prices.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202512/medium-1qcumv-img-6958.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202512/medium-2vwzhy-img-6959.png

naana8 our local is 18c, lots of beams, no brasses.

We’re eating at a restaurant in the New Forest on Sunday with friends, we’ve been before, excellent food and a decent price.

Pre budget one in ten pubs were not profitable, now with the new regs it is one in three (according to an item I have just watched on TV)

This Labour government is not a government for business, whatever, however they are trying to spin it.

I'm afraid that the four pub closures I mentioned earlier all happened over a period of about 15 years. All under the tories.

I like the ceiling Jaxjacky . Our house has exposed beams, too and I have plates displayed around the top of the walls. Wood panelling . Bit of nostalgia, I like the rustic look.

Reeves had vowed to introduce the lowest taxes since 1991 for pubs, restaurants and small shops by increasing the levy on higher-value properties such as warehouses used by Amazon and other online giants.

28/11/25

Not another economy with the truth? 😲

Reeves does bring a whole new strength to that phrase of a "terminological inexactitude". If she said the sun was shining = I'd have a look to check - rather than take her word for it.

Allira

^Reeves had vowed to introduce the lowest taxes since 1991 for pubs, restaurants and small shops by increasing the levy on higher-value properties such as warehouses used by Amazon and other online giants.^

28/11/25

Not another economy with the truth? 😲

DH has just come back from meeting his friend at his Gastro Pub he has been told by his BDM to expect a rate rise of between 250-400%.

It is ridiculous to say that hospitality can absorb the I erase in running costs, with increased NI, increase to living wage, energy prices and food prices…

And I ask yet again but you won't respond, looking at the linked case studies, please show a worked example of what the precise increase will be ... else all this complaining is farmers and IHT over again.

It isn't ridiculous. Businesses absorb higher running costs all the time. It's how capitalism works. It's why you could buy a pint of beer in the early 70s for two bob that will now cost £5 or more.

Are you saying that businesses shouldn't have to pay a living wage?

What nobody mentions in any of this is that businesses in the RHL sector have competition. I can easily count around 200 coffee shops, cafes, bars, pubs and restaurants in this small town - population less than than £200,000. One for every 1,000 people. It's over saturation which has come to dominate the high street to the detriment of other business. If business owners saturate the market, whatever the product, some will suffer.

Then there are the supermarkets offering meal deals and bargain booze encouraging people to stay home to eat and drink.

One cannot lay all of this at the door of government.

Farmers all over again?!!!!

Just out is the following article on the Daily Sceptic:

www.dailysceptic.org/2025/12/02/labours-plan-to-turn-englands-best-farmland-over-to-developers-is-about-to-come-to-pass

Basically the government plans to let local Councils compulsorily purchase farmers land - at farmland prices - and then flog it on to developers at developers prices (for the building of all these extra homes for all this extra population).

I am no fan of farmers per se (unless they're organic/permaculture/community etc etc) - but I reckon many of them saw which way the wind was blowing - and bearing in mind the parlous state of finances of many Councils these days (ie so any unprincipled ones out of them might lurve the idea of "Buy land cheap and sell it on dear/very dear").

Just because something got spotted in the "Daily Mail" or, in this case more of a "Daily Telegraph" type direction does not make it wrong/a subject for ridicule.....

PaynesGrey
I can’t offer more than this, but this is real.

Yes, and that's the new rateable value. It is not what a business pays in tax.

Look at the case study 2 in the link that would be close to this - RVs from £20,000 £28,000 in London) to £100,000.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/budget-2025-retail-hospitality-and-leisure-factsheet/budget-2025-retail-hospitality-and-leisure-factsheet

This is how I interpret the transitional relief, applying the factors in case study 2.

In 2025/26, for an independent pub with a rateable value of £26,000, the business rates liability was calculated by multiplying the rateable value by the multiplier of 49.9p, andthen deducting the 40% RHL relief.

Before the RHL relief, the pub’s bill would be £26,000 x 0.499 =£12,974

RHL relief 40% of £12,984 would be £5,190 making a net bill of £7,784.

The rateable value will increase to £63.500.

The pub is eligible for the new permanently lower standard RHL multiplier of43p in 2026/27, so before any reliefs, the pub’s bill would be £63,000 x 0.43= £27,090.

The Government is providing relief through the Supporting Small Business scheme for properties losing their RHL relief in 2026/27.This means that the pub’s bill increase in 2026/27 compared to 2025/26 is capped at the higher of £800 or the relevant Transitional Relief capof, in this case,30%.

30% of the 2025/26 bill of £7,784 is £2,225, which is higher than the £800 cap. So,in this case the 30% cap applies. The pub’s bill from April 2026 will be £7,784 + £2,335 = £10,119.

In other words, the rise will be capped at £2,335 or £45 a week.

Business tax is based on rateable value I thought?

I am no fan of farmers per se (unless they're organic/permaculture/community etc etc)

And why would that be, exactly?
Presumably you grow all your own food but most people don't and farmers are taken for granted, now by Government too.

I suppose if the hospitality industry is the latest scapegoat, perhaps farmers will be left alone now to get on with the job of feeding an ungrateful nation.

Without them, incidentally, there would not be a hospitality industry.