The Women's Institute is to revert to being an Institute for Women

Chardy

So based on this, should Scouts revert to being male-only? Or Gransnet only be for those with grandchildren?

No because biological sex does not govern whether one becomes a grandparent or not.

However, it is quite within the remit of GN to exclude people who are not grandparents, should they so choose. Otherwise every special interest group in the countrycould, in theory, be taken over by a flash mob of uninterested members.

model railway groups where not a single member has any interest in model railways. Oh horror!

Girls who go to scouts generally don't pretend to be boys to go there. That's the difference

Chardy

So based on this, should Scouts revert to being male-only? Or Gransnet only be for those with grandchildren?

Neither of those organisations advertises themselves as being single-sex, so it's an entirely false equivalence. GN specifically says that being a grandparent is not a condition of joining (it describes itself as being for the over 50s), and Scouting dropped the 'Boy' some time ago when it became unisex.

The Women's Institute's 'About Us' info reads:
The WI is a unique organisation shaped by its members. In 1915, we set out to give women a voice and to be a force for good in the community. Since then, our members and our ambitions alike have grown tremendously. Today, we are the largest women’s organisation in the UK and we pride ourselves on being a trusted place for women of all generations, to share experiences and learn from each other. A WI membership offers the opportunity to meet women in your local area in-person and virtually, to make friends and make a difference in your community. We campaign nationally on a wide range of issues and provide life-long learning and self-development opportunities for women in England and Wales. (my emboldening)

If the WI wants to include men, they could be the Institute, or the People's Institute, the Adults' Institute, or whatever it likes, so long as its mission statements and advertising does not state that it exists as 'a trusted place for women of all generations'. I suspect that if it did so it would attract a very different membership demographic.

In many (not all) mixed-sex groups men dominate, as many women have been socialised to defer to them, and to behave differently in 'mixed company'. As an example, Peter Wenham joined as Petra Wenham after beginning to 'live as a woman' in 2018. Wenham appeared on the cover of the WI magazine soon afterwards, and was elevated to National Membership Committee status in 2013 - something that usually takes many years to achieve.

I don't know what will happen to existing male memberships - does a WI member (or anyone) know the answer to that? I know that as of April it will be illegal to base any memberships (including Guiding and other single-sex groups) on anything other than biological sex, but I'm not sure if the law will apply retrospectively.

If it wasn't so serious ( in particular with regard to the safeguarding issues in relation to girl guides) it would be very funny watching the organisations still pandering to men with their apologies for having to follow the law.
I will be interested to see what will happen to the women who had to leave their positions in guiding over this issue, I wonder if they will be able to make a legal challenge.

I will also be interested to see what happens there, Galaxy. A friend of mine 'retired' from Guiding as a result of the issue. She would have gone within a short space of time anyway, but her decision to go when she did was based on tnot wanting to lie by omission to parents about boys in what were assumed to be girls' tents. She was by no means alone.

It was a guide leader who had been kicked out of guides and was on MN, Katie alcock who i remember as being one of the first to raise this issue, that must have been a decade ago at least. I remember her desperate attempts with regard to safeguarding. I have just googled and seen she did try a legal challenge years ago, it wasn't clear in the reporting what happened

@ Doodledog - In many (not all) mixed-sex groups men dominate, as many women have been socialised to defer to them, and to behave differently in 'mixed company'.

This is so true. I have been to see a male nutritionist and in our 3/4 hour session he spoke for most of the time. An electrician came to sort out something in our house and he spoke the whole time to my husband. They introduce a different dynamic.

What rather appalled me was the wording from the Girl Guides to say that they were making this change ‘with heavy hearts….’
I dare say the WI said something similar.

GoodAfternoonTea

*@ Doodledog - In many (not all) mixed-sex groups men dominate, as many women have been socialised to defer to them, and to behave differently in 'mixed company'. *

This is so true. I have been to see a male nutritionist and in our 3/4 hour session he spoke for most of the time. An electrician came to sort out something in our house and he spoke the whole time to my husband. They introduce a different dynamic.

Yes I can think of some men that dominate the conversation I can also think of some women that do. There are also men that are timid and quiet also some women. We should not stereotype people by their gender.

It would be interesting to know how many women have left WI because trans women joined the group.
There aren't any trans in the small group in my village but knowing some of the women who attend I think they would be uncomfortable with it.

Jackiest

We should not stereotype people by their gender.

We shouldn’t stereotype.
But if that’s what you’ve experienced
E.g. man buying my car who spoke only to DH, until he was told by DH, that I was selling it.
Or the men who take over at Parish Council
meetings
Or the man who came to arrange our new kitchen who only asked DH what he wanted, and when DH pointed out it was our kitchen made a comment that she’ll be the one spending time in here.

Mollygo

Jackiest

We should not stereotype people by their gender.

We shouldn’t stereotype.
But if that’s what you’ve experienced
E.g. man buying my car who spoke only to DH, until he was told by DH, that I was selling it.
Or the men who take over at Parish Council
meetings
Or the man who came to arrange our new kitchen who only asked DH what he wanted, and when DH pointed out it was our kitchen made a comment that ^she’ll be the one spending time in here.^

It’s not just men!
We once had a double glazing saleswoman (I’ll call her A) - young, wearing a see through blouse and batting her eyelashes a lot at him) who addressed every single remark to dh.

We’d had 2 other very similar quotes, from men, who addressed us both.

When the time came to choose, Dh said ‘I think we’ll go with A, shall we?’

I said, ‘Because you could admire her cleavage and she batted her eyelashes at you? I think not!’
We didn’t!

Good example Witzend!

Ridiculous! The Institution for Women sounds very much like an Institute for Women but not in a good way! It has suggestions of a 'place around the bend. We all probably know what that particular establishment is!
Some of us may be slightly eccentric, ranty, irrational Diva's but we also have more common sense than "Some people" have in their woke, right-on, pretentious, ninby-namby, social- media obsessed elbows!
Thank goodness I'm not a young woman of today because I know,
I would have been ostracized or cancelled ( as it is now known) many moons ago. Ps, I am I still allowed to say moon?????😬

I have a trans friend who has been a valued member of her local W.I. for a number of years.
She has had the full male to female op - am not getting into a discussion whether my friend be referred to as he or she, but will be interested to hear the reaction of her fellow W.I. members who have all welcomed her, without exception.

I'm glad the GG have won this victory, in a residential scenario where shared sleeping quarters and showers/toilets come into play its absolutely essential for safety and dignity of girls and women they remain single sex. It's all been mentioned before, but these contentious situations always seem to go just the one way, I suppose it may occur but we rarely, if ever, read about trans men going out on a limb to access men only organisations, private spaces.

Whether people discuss it or not, transwomen are male, if we never mentioned it again, they would remain male.

About time. The WI was meant to be for women, not men masquerading as women.

And they should stop being sorry and sending out groveling apologies that this has finally happened.

These men can find their own clubs and associations and leave women alone.

WI have created this situation by allowing men to join and should be apologising to women for that.

RockingGrandma

I have a trans friend who has been a valued member of her local W.I. for a number of years.
She has had the full male to female op - am not getting into a discussion whether my friend be referred to as he or she, but will be interested to hear the reaction of her fellow W.I. members who have all welcomed her, without exception.

Did your friend announce his situation?

Incidentally, consider considering how few there are, GN is a great place to read about all the people who all know trans, whether of the you can tell, or they have told or you’d never know branch.
The problems arose because of the few trans or I should probably say transwomen as you don’t hear much about trans men, who made their blatant disregard for the rights of women, and the comfort of women very obvious.

"Stop the World I want get off! The question is where?
Is anywhere actually reasonable anymore.
"Common sense has now left the building!" 🤔

Belonging to a small women's group, I think it would ruin the dynamic to have an obvious male present, dressed as a woman. Sometimes, it's good to have get togethers with members of our own sex. I know my o/h appreciates the camaraderie he has with other men out on the golf course, it's not a question of precluding women because they're also members, just a desire for interaction with the same sex particularly relevant in certain scenarios such as shared sporting interests. There are many organisations that are open to both men and women such as the U3A. I'm not a member of the WI, but the defining characteristic surely is in the name. I definitely think there is an element, within the transwomen community who are bloody minded and act out of combativeness, belligerence and male aggression that has driven all this entitlement along.

AGAA4

WI have created this situation by allowing men to join and should be apologising to women for that.

The WI only allowed 'special men' to join, and that was challenged in court. Born male you'll die male no matter if you have surgery, take cross sex hormones etc, it's impossible to change your sex. The Supreme Court helpfully clarified that the law states woman is the term for biological females and man is the term for biological males. Facts remain facts whether people want to believe them or not.

This is also the same for males, whilst the safety issue isn't the same in terms of prisons, changing rooms, etc,, men are entitled to spaces without women. The example I usually give is a group aimed at supporting men in terms of mental health, if a woman tried to access that group she too would wrong.