Tommy Robinson’s ‘put Christ back into Christmas’ message"

I've resisted posting on this thread so far- mostly because not wanting to give airspace to TR. Neither do I have any expertise regarding religious matters.

I am aware from various articles in the media that The CofE has spoken out as quoted earlier: “Any co-opting or corrupting of the Christian faith to exclude others is unacceptable, and we are gravely concerned about the use of Christian symbols and rhetoric to apparently justify racism and anti-migrant rhetoric,” Thats resonates with me as I feel all religions should be inclusive and should not be racist or anti immigrant.

But I just had to thank Wyllow3 for her link of Pretoria University Choir. So beautiful and so uplifting. So wonderful also to see and hear a South African diverse choir sing this together- harmony indeed! 👏👏

fancythat

^false, toxic premise that British identity equals Christian identity equals white European identity^

Of course British identity equals Christian identity.
That doesnt have to be white!

I assume there must be many more millions of non-white Christians in the world than white ones.

I imagine Heaven to be filled with every nation on earth.

Wasn't it under 50% identifying as Christian in the last census? I'm sure it was low any way.

I accept that yours, is yours, without reservations

I may and have put conceptual and historical reasons forward to call into question the God given claims of the Nicene creed, but in our hearts:

as I say, I accept you are you are, without reservations, for we all come from different places, still wishing goodwill:

But can you accept my faith, and that of other Christians, or are you insisting we cannot be Christians

It isn't my version Wyllow.

There are indeed Christians all over the world of different cultures and colours. (I've been looking up some wonderful songs of praise from all over the world, including praise songs from the wonderful mixed race choirs of South Africa post- apartheid in the original languages of those peoples.

What I am wrestling with Smileless is the concept that to be a Christian they have to agree with your version of what it means to be Christian, ie the nicene creed of virgin birth and a physical resurrection (as opposed to these being strong and everlasting symbolic not literal interpretations of the significant birth of Jesus and the idea of life after death still being in the body in a place called heaven.

The symbolic interpretations are as powerful and as meaningful as literal ones in worshippers minds, and of church leaders who see a symbolic interpretation as being just as valid - and know and accept that within their churches or other places of worship

"where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

Is it arrogance, or a simple assertion of equality amongst those seeking a spiritual life, to say, where the precepts that Jesus stood for are practiced, there there is a full spiritual experience?

anyway, I shall share this wonderful top SA choir - one of so many I have found in my U tube journeys looking at Christianity and other worship traditions from around the world

I guarantee most here will adore this song?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXcttZVhf0s&list=RDaXcttZVhf0s&start_radio=1

I imagine Heaven to be filled with every nation on earth as do I fancythat.

false, toxic premise that British identity equals Christian identity equals white European identity

Of course British identity equals Christian identity.
That doesnt have to be white!

I assume there must be many more millions of non-white Christians in the world than white ones.

I imagine Heaven to be filled with every nation on earth.

Or should we ask how so many different people can identify with the group?

So (not saying it’s true) but is there a point now when a group identity for Britain is not a cohesive entity? It’s a mishmash? Or not? How logically can a group identify with so many different people?

foxie I'm with you two out of three but I am a Christian.

ronib

It does rather beg the question therefore - what is British identity? Not white, not Christian? So tell us what it is …

It's not a fixed thing. Once it was using woad to paint your body, once it was living in huts with no knowledge of a religion from the middle east called Christianity, once it was enslaving people from Africa and selling them to the New World. Once it was making little boys climb chimneys.

None of those things are relevant now. Your definition of British identity might be the same as mine or completely different, perhaps influenced by where we live, who our parents were or our education.

ronib

It does rather beg the question therefore - what is British identity? Not white, not Christian? So tell us what it is …

My British identity is female, white and non Christian but I'm sure others will identify differently.

Indeed, foxie. Surely I can't be the only one who feels a little amused/ patronised by Mr Robinson telling me that I need to put Christ back into Christmas?
Like many here, I suspect, Christ has been at the centre of my celebrations for more than seventy years, church services, school and church nativity plays, carol concerts, and so on, long before this man was born.
I'm not thinking " Thank goodness, Mr Yaxley Lennon, that I have you to remind me of the true meaning of Christmas".

It does rather beg the question therefore - what is British identity? Not white, not Christian? So tell us what it is …

The Church of England is speaking out against Tommy Robinson's attempt to use Christmas to boost Christian Nationalism.
“Any co-opting or corrupting of the Christian faith to exclude others is unacceptable, and we are gravely concerned about the use of Christian symbols and rhetoric to apparently justify racism and anti-migrant rhetoric,”
"encourage diverse congregations at a time when “divisive” figures were promoting the “false, toxic premise that British identity equals Christian identity equals white European identity”.

Lots more to read in the Guardian's article.

2022 Telegraph headlines

"Quarter of clergy do not believe in the Virgin Birth
By Chris Hastings and Fiona Govan
22 December 2002 • 12:01am

"More than a quarter of Church of England clergy do not believe in the virgin birth of Christ, according to a survey carried out by The Telegraph"

Details are behind a paywall, but I'm not surprised given people I've talked to.

The Bishop of Durham (Jenkins) cautioned against insisting that religious events, like the Resurrection, must be understood in strictly literal, physical terms. He wasn’t denying the event itself; rather, he was saying that treating it purely as a physical, observable fact misses the deeper theological and spiritual meaning. Using the “conjuring trick with bones” example, he illustrated that just because something can be replicated or explained physically doesn’t invalidate its significance—literal evidence isn’t the only way to grasp truth in matters of faith.

theworriedwell

fancythat

That is one of my most favourite Bible verses.
Gives lots of hope.

It certainly gives more hope than the previous. I think it does show how you can change the message by the passages you use or leave out.

Yes it does.

It also confirms my belief in thinking positively, inclusivity not excluding

fancy, just for your information, Aramaic, not Arabic. Excuse the pedantry.
Also, some of the writings would have been in Greek, the language of scholars. then eventually translated into Latin, the language of the Church.
Lots of opportunities for 'changes', intended or not.

Yes.
From the original arabic or whatever it was.

I think you understand what I have previously posted?

fancythat

That is one of my most favourite Bible verses.
Gives lots of hope.

It certainly gives more hope than the previous. I think it does show how you can change the message by the passages you use or leave out.

fancythat, near enough?

Do you know how many translations there are? Thousands. Different versions don't even have the same number of books, Catholic bibles have more than Protestant versions, Orthodox have more than Catholic.

That is one of my most favourite Bible verses.
Gives lots of hope.

Matthew 19:26 gives clarity. 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

theworriedwell

fancythat

That is the thing with translations, particularly a translation of a translation

Most older Christians I know, either read or refer back to the King James Bible.

Yes one of the translations.

When I go to a different church[not just me], people who have been Christians for a little while can tell if the preacher is sticking to the Bible or not.

Same thing with Bible translations.
If they are not right, it soon becomes apparent.

And I always think that God being God, is not going to allow there to be no Bibles that are not near enough translated from the original.

I happen to know a Christian Bible translator.
For The Bible Society I think.
She translates across different languages. She is fluent in at least seven.
She takes great care to get things as accurate as she possibly can.