John Smyth, Church Scandal, Channel 4 9pm

It was BlueBelle's post that I found upsetting GG. You're right about the importance of this documentary but it isn't something everyone can watch, and no one should be judged for not doing so.

If it's upsetting for us, imagine what the victims went through.

I thought Bluebelle had a point. We cannot shy away from the reality of what some human beings are capable of. I will watch it but probably not tonight, out of respect for his children who wish to allow the truth to be laid out.

For the same reason I watched the harrowing documentary about the French woman, Gisele Pelicot, who very bravely agreed to the details of what she suffered come to light.

However difficult we feel these things are, the wishes of the victims have to come first.

It's a personal decision keepingquiet and not one anyone should be criticised for making.

Abuse came too close to home when the police arrested the vicar of the next parish, his computer was full of child sex abuse.

I remember watching a documentary a few years ago about that Bishop Ball. One of his victims, who was now an adult, described his perverted behaviour towards him and other boys.
I could not help thinking what a horrible vile man he is.

I’m sorry if my post upset you Smileness but I do think the average person who wants to close their eyes does need to watch , of course if someone was abused so badly in their childhood it’s understandable they maybe can’t that wasn’t who I was referring to and I apologise for upsetting you

I went into the Parish Church where my parents are buried some time ago. I always like a copy of the parish magazine. I flicked through and there was a photo of former Archbishop Justin Welby. His eyes had been scratched out. I picked up another copy …. Same. I looked at about a dozen more, all the same. A colour photo on the wall was the same. At the time I couldn’t understand why but having seen the prog. Maybe one of his victims had been in before me.

Where’s his wife in all this? is she still alive ? Surely she knew what was going on Did she turn a blind eye ?

BlueBelle

Where’s his wife in all this? is she still alive ? Surely she knew what was going on Did she turn a blind eye ?

Smyth's widow, Ann is interviewed (by two of her children) towards the end of the second part of the documentary.
Her children and the victims/survivors stated they hold no blame against Ann Smyth, she was likely as much a victim of Smyth's coercive control as those he abused.
The blame lies with Smyth and the many officials of the Church of England who allowed his abuse to continue.
The subject of abuse was treated extremely sensitively.

Those clergy closest to Smyth arranged for him to leave the UK to work abroad where it seems he continued his vile ways. They are hugely to blame for the cover up.

Yes, it was the "lets ship abroad" mentality as in going back to Empire days when instead of court proceedings wealthy families sent their sons to wreak whatever havoc elsewhere. Just disgraceful.

I want to know how his wife did not just go to the police and shop him, the evidence was there. If anyone did that to mine I would not be responsible for my actions to him, I would take the consequences. As for Welby, he cannot be not a man of God to sit by because it was uncomfortable, whilst such evil carried on, an absolute disgrace. How can he make peace with God after that? If he were my father I would be ashamed. I cannot begin to imagine how his victims must feel I hope with all my heart they have had happiness.

It’s interesting how easily blame is being apportioned to his wife. She has apologised to the victims, expressed shame that she followed her husband’s instructions to tend to wounds. She learned to placate, to do as he wanted in order to avoid his anger. As a Christian wife, she saw her role as one of obedience in marriage. No doubt he found the right wife then groomed and controlled her.

Her son and daughter describe their mother as his first victim. They both talk of the power their father extorted over others outside, never mind inside their family.

I’m not minimising this man’s wickedness. I want the focus on him, not his wife. She will also have been aware that powerful people in the Church were aware yet colluded

I don’t think Welby knew anything until much much later, so others need to take responsibility too. Unfortunately those most guilty are now dead, so it’s too late to punish them.

The important people now are the surviving victims, and making sure that everyone is safe, in every context but especially in voluntary organisations.

From AI Justin Welby has stated that he first became aware of the specific, serious allegations of abuse against John Smyth in August 2013, shortly after he became Archbishop of Canterbury. The findings of an independent review, however, concluded that it was "unlikely" he would have had no knowledge of concerns regarding Smyth in the 1980s

The level of violence inflicted on those boys was immense.
There was certainly a culture of moving people on when this happened, but the magnitude of abuse perpetrated in this case was way off the usual scale.
Welby denied knowing about the severity of the abuse, but he also said he was too busy (?) to act on his findings when he took office, and that is inexcusable.

I’m not defending Welby, but he knew it had been passed to the police, who failed to act sufficiently.

I wondered why it took so long to report, but the emotional shame seems to be what does it.

We had a scout master who picked on the wrong child, who promptly told his parent who called the police. It turned out though that one of the assistant leaders, now aged 22, was a victim himself!!! Now even if he could not bring himself to report, we all wondered why he stayed around

Yes, his wife is an enigma. She knew what he was doing yet never said anything to anyone and so enabled him.

I don't think I'll be able to watch it. Nothing makes me angrier than these religious perverts, and the evil people that cover it up.

Allsorts

I want to know how his wife did not just go to the police and shop him, the evidence was there. If anyone did that to mine I would not be responsible for my actions to him, I would take the consequences. As for Welby, he cannot be not a man of God to sit by because it was uncomfortable, whilst such evil carried on, an absolute disgrace. How can he make peace with God after that? If he were my father I would be ashamed. I cannot begin to imagine how his victims must feel I hope with all my heart they have had happiness.

Didn't Welby report him to the police or maybe told someone to report him? I haven't seen this documentary but I thought it had been reported.

Surely his wife knew and what about adults responsible for those children didn't they notice,?

I don't understand the wife either. Smyth beat his (and her) own son! Where was her maternal instinct? Even if she could find ways to accept his torture of other young people, how could she allow that to happen to her own child? I just can't come to terms with that at all.

Of course it was Smyth who was to blame, but he couldn't have maintained his veneer of respectability without Ann's compliance. I'm not saying she was responsible for what happened, but she enabled it, and allowed it to continue for as long as it did.

The interview with her children at the end of episode 2 was strange. The family clearly have communication issues - this wouldn't have happened otherwise - but even allowing for that it was very controlled and scratched the surface of a massive subject. The children both forgave her, and said she was Smyth's first victim, but there was nothing in the documentary to back that up. They will obviously have a better idea about that, of course, and I'm not suggesting that their theory is untrue; but the family discussion seemed very 'staged' to me, particularly the touching of hands at the end, as though the case is closed. It isn't for the huge number of victims, is it?

I can't begin to imagine how I would feel if I found out that my son had been treated like that, and not only had it happened in the home of someone in a position of responsibility in the church, but that his wife had tended to the victims' wounds. I would be homicidal. It is not for the family to forgive Ann. Yes, there is a lot for them to come to terms with, and yes, the son can decide if he can forgive his own abuse, but the tone of the ending of the programme seemed to suggest that it is all over. Can't she be prosecuted for aiding and abetting abuse? I think she should be.

Yes it’s important that you watch it to see the extent of cruelty one trusted person can inflict on an innocent child.
Those of us with young children no matter how many years ago will now wonder did anything like this happen to my child.
When this became news my husband gently talked to our sons about it but we had always taught them if anything happened they didn’t like they must tell us, how could these poor children do that, they were protected by the church and religion. You will be shocked when you watch the programme but it’s not voyeurism it’s a straight forward warning.
Incidentally my husband went to boardings school and hated every minute, the masters were evil and had favourites amongst the boys, luckily my dear husband was not in this group and ran away from school until his parents gave up and removed him, a happy day for him.

His wife enabled horrible abuse and took part in cleaning up blood why has she not been arrested