John Smyth, Church Scandal, Channel 4 9pm

Welby reported it to the police but didn't follow it up wasn't he implicated in the whole thing

It's so far out of my comfort zone to understand what went on. Totally beyond anyone's comprehension.

I don't understand how he was allowed free access in and out of Winchester College?

I don't get how there must have been opportunities to report him, yet the school didn't?

How come someone was giving those pupils permission to go to the house?

Justin Welby was at the summer camps, so surely he would have known what was happening?

And why were rich boys from wealthy families targeted? That questions society as a whole. It's very disturbing.

At that time, teachers caught abusing children were moved on to another school, where the same things were often repeated. That was wrong too, but this story goes beyond covering things up.

I've not seen the the second episode, so I'll be interested to hear more about the wife.

I don't understand the wife either. Smyth beat his (and her) own son! Where was her maternal instinct? Even if she could find ways to accept his torture of other young people, how could she allow that to happen to her own child? I just can't come to terms with that at all
Doodledog I agree wholeheartedly I cannot equate how this woman could let her own child be beaten .. herself I can understand but her child and then the continuation of other young boys to the extent that she was cleaning up bad, bad wounds I can not accept and like you I believe she should be prosecuted
I would die before anyone touched my children and before anyone says but she was in a difficult situation you don’t know how you would behave in the situation I have been in an abusive relationship and if any of my children had been touched I would never in a million years stay or cover up for him ….never

A question: (without having seen episode two).

Could the wife have possibly been acting in that way, and sweeping it under the carpet, because she enjoyed the lifestyle - the big country house, the holidays and all the trappings etc.?

I don't think saying you loved your husband is a reasonable excuse she should have been sickened at what he was doing any normal person would be She only had to leave and report him I say that as someone who left an abusive husband and left the family home with a three year old

And me too Takethat7 left with three young children with a big bag of toys, a bag of clothes, some saucepans and the goldfish.

She maybe thought her husband was born again the evangelical teaching and God was forgiving him because he was saved These kids would have had so much better lifes if they hadn't been conditioned into believing a born again is special

A refuge would have accepted her as they did with us maybe as someone said above she couldn't bare to leave a nice home

I’m not disagreeing with the outrage expressed here towards Mrs Smythe. It’s incomprehensible to me, as it is to other posters, that a woman, wife, mother could be involved in the abuse by treating wounds and failing to seek help, ideally from police, but also from her Church companions

We need to remember that corporal punishment was viewed through a different lens. For reasons beyond my comprehension, head teachers, form tutors, parents, residential care workers were allowed to beat the bottoms of children. Why the obvious sexual elements were denied is a mystery.

Mrs S, supported by her children says fear kept her compliant. I fear it was worse, that it didn’t seem like abuse to her. I’m not excusing thst

I know there was corporal punishment in those days but it was not this type of corporal punishment and was usually done in front of the class or school to make a statement not in a shed at the bottom of the garden it was often referred to as ‘6 of the best’ not hours of massive corporal punishment
… and we can’t underestimate those poor children in Africa
who would have no voice either and have never been approached for their stories or have they ?

Whatever excuse you make she was part of it It ll be interesting to see if any more of her role comes out tonight

The religious instruction that underpinned the Iwerne Camps and Smyth's abuse was based on Muscular Christianity, this is mentioned in the documentary. Proponents of Muscular Christianity didn't agree on how much corporal punishment should play a role in the religion, Smyth took it to an extreme. Corporal punishment was not uncommon in the 70s/80s.
John Smyth was charismatic, a barrister and QC, he was a master manipulator and abuser. His wife didn't stand a chance.
It isn't Ann Smyth that the victims see as complicit, it's the officials in the Church that knew about the Ruston report and covered up Smyth's abuse - shipping him out to Africa. Noone knows exactly who read the Rushton report (how widely it was distributed), one would imagine anyone at working at Iwerne during Smyth's reign of a use would have been aware of the subsequent report. Justin Welby was a Dormitory Officer during the years Smyth was abusing boys at Iwerne Camp.

*Smyth's reign of abuse

Thanks OldFrill
It is a common response to incest type abuse to blame the mother. Ann Smyth is in a different position yet her involvement is raising much discussion for reasons I understand

The outstanding question remains. Why are so many men sexually attracted to children, why do authority figures cover it up or fail to follow safeguarding procedures.

In what universe is beating men/boys bare bottoms till they bleed acceptable

Iam64

Thanks OldFrill
It is a common response to incest type abuse to blame the mother. Ann Smyth is in a different position yet her involvement is raising much discussion for reasons I understand

The outstanding question remains. Why are so many men sexually attracted to children, why do authority figures cover it up or fail to follow safeguarding procedures.

In what universe is beating men/boys bare bottoms till they bleed acceptable

She saw children bleeding from beatings, she looked the other way. There is no excuse.

I’m not excusing worriedwell. I’m reminding us who the abuser was and so often is. We see women as more culpable, question how Ann Smythe could collude - all valid questions. Why did Smythe abuse young men and boys so horrifically. Why did none of the men who became aware not take effective action

From further reading it is my understanding that by the time this abuse reached the police, they were overwhelmed with the workload of investigating allegations of abuse by Jimmy Saville, and other historical abusers. Smyth’s victims were reluctant to reveal their identities at that time, so police did not have a lot to go on.
As a result of the Saville abuse, the whole police systems changed so that it was not left piecemeal in the hands of separate police forces. Safeguarding regulations came into play too after that. It is hard to realise how different things were back then.
I expect to hear more from John Smyth’s family at 9 pm.

It isn’t true Cabbie21 that the Saville investigations overwhelmed and prevented Smythe being investigated. The Makin review found the Church actively covered up and suppressed a 1982 report detailing the abuse.

Iam64

I’m not excusing worriedwell. I’m reminding us who the abuser was and so often is. We see women as more culpable, question how Ann Smythe could collude - all valid questions. Why did Smythe abuse young men and boys so horrifically. Why did none of the men who became aware not take effective action

I think we can blame her for what she didn't do without it meaning we don't blame any of the men.

It's true there was more physical punishment from parents years ago but these boys were not even his own In the evangelical church it's very black and white and controlling at times I think maybe all the fuss about
being born again justifies a lot of evil they talk like your saved and therefore go to heaven Id rather think you don't go to heaven if your evil and continue being evil Id rather it I did believe think it was people who did all they could to make life better for other people who got accepted by God I think the evangelical church is a strange cult like group

His wife cleaned up the blood she was totally involved

In the short clip I saw she said she would be asked to dress and put ointment on the wounds which she did in silence without asking any questions or making any comment.

People are capable of the most banal behaviour if there is nothing there to mitigate it.

I find it impossible to both understand but even judge this woman- she did not collude or initiate the abuse, yet we now consider her silence staggering and rightly so.

For abuse to continue, only silence is needed. Lessons to be learned indeed.

The man was a horrendous abuser but she the wife aided and abetted You get your kids and you go

I was careful to say that it was Smyth who carried out the abuse, and I am not blaming Ann for that. But she could have reported it, or told the boys to tell their parents or the police. As I remember it (I have seen both episodes) there was nothing about being 'born again' in the documentary. In the photos of Ann Smyth as a younger woman, and the video of her when her husband was 'doorstepped' by a reporter she wore a beatific smile, even when he was asked why he beat young men until they bled.

I do understand domestic abuse and the fear that it can instil; but I can't understand a mother standing back when her children are being hurt. This was not corporal punishment - it was torture, with an obvious sexual element. She could have acted to stop it, and she should have done. The only mitigation offered by the programme was that she believed in the sanctity of marriage and that her role as a wife was to be supportive of her husband. Fair enough - but what about supporting her children? Horrible.

Smyths' wife should be arrested for complicity. She allowed this to happen, she could have alerted the police, left him or gone directly to the press. She did nothing. She is far from innocent. Listening to her was shocking!

The CofE covered this up, so did his wife. The CofE try to protect their reputation, she tried to protect her lifestyle.