John Smyth, Church Scandal, Channel 4 9pm

Her kids are being accepting of her reasons for not speaking out because she is their Mum and an elderly lady now. I believe though, deep down they know full well that she could have and should have spoken out all those years ago.

In that lengthy part of the prog where the journalist was following Smyth and his wife she looked as guilty as hell to me and gave a good impression of a confused old lady.

I agree that she was protecting her lifestyle.

Well, the wife did at least say she felt ashamed. So she certainly should.

She could have done something. Instead she chose to appear serene and adopt a decidedly untroubled attitude towards her husband's behaviour.

I'm not sure her son snd daughter were totally convinced. And I wonder what the other absent daughter might have added too.

Why would I watch it, what good will that serve? I gather from these posts what was done to the victims, his wife is almost as bad, what mother would see her son whipped, one who put herself and lifestyle first. People die trying to save a child, she stood by and treated the wounds, a truly evil pair what a monster,she should be in prison I don't care if she is 100 and acting confused, she is very good at playing a part after all, too late now all the damage has been done.

Well I feel no better about the mother, having watched the second part I see her as an accomplice who allowed it to happen She could /should have done more even if only for her own children Her little girls had to stay upstairs because they were girls !! The son was beaten albeit not to the extent of the other boys but nevertheless beaten and she turned a blind eye, what mother wipes all her husbands horrific deeds out and just smiles
I did not see fear in her eyes but complete submission with no possibility to challenge him she must have been the perfect wife for him one who accepted all he did with a smile and a handhold
I am so sorry that man had a heart attack and just like Saville he conveniently avoided any payback !!!

Horrendous stuff, of course the two children forgave her she’s an old lady saying she was weak and sorry and should have acted differently which is easy to say after it’s all over
He was an horrendous abuser and she and the church allowed it to go unchallenged

But I don’t see how she could now be punished now whilst he has escaped, so she must live with her guilt which she seemed resigned to do

MartavTaurus I googled the other daughter wondering why she didn’t take part but she has died of breast cancer

MartavTaurus

Well, the wife did at least say she felt ashamed. So she certainly should.

She could have done something. Instead she chose to appear serene and adopt a decidedly untroubled attitude towards her husband's behaviour.

I'm not sure her son snd daughter were totally convinced. And I wonder what the other absent daughter might have added too.

I didn't watch it, although I have seen one programme about this a while ago. One daughter was interviewed on the local news. She appears to have disliked her father but there was nothing that a child could have done. They must be damaged too, even if not physically abused.

The mother, whilst not assisting in the abuse, was complicit because she allowed this to happen to so many boys, including her own son. What kind of woman, mother does that?

BlueBelle

MartavTaurus I googled the other daughter wondering why she didn’t take part but she has died of breast cancer

Yes. That was Nicola, the youngest daughter, who died in her early 40s. She was not in the documentary, or even mentioned I believe.

The other girls were Fiona and Caroline. Only one of them spoke with the mother (and brother) in the final scene, so I wondered why one of them didn't take part.

Oh I didn’t realise there was ‘three’ girls my mistake perhaps she had removed herself from the family when she was old enough to wipe them out of her life

On reflection I think the wife was totally brainwashed by the husband and the interpretation of marriage and the subservient role of women at that time in their particular understanding of Christian marriage.
I recognise this from my parents’ marriage at that time, though my Father was an utterly good man. I’m sure if he had done anything wrong my mother would have spoken out though.

Cabbie21

On reflection I think the wife was totally brainwashed by the husband and the interpretation of marriage and the subservient role of women at that time in their particular understanding of Christian marriage.
I recognise this from my parents’ marriage at that time, though my Father was an utterly good man. I’m sure if he had done anything wrong my mother would have spoken out though.

I haven’t watched the programmes.
I’m not defending Ann Smythe and as we are mostly women and mothers in this discussion, it’s inevitable we will question her role in this horrific abuse.

Cabbie’s post puts it well imo. The awful Smythe selected the perfect wife for a controlling abuser like him. Stockholm syndrome played its part. It reminds me of the time when domestic abuse was dismissed as ‘a domestic’. Women still return many times before leaving. Ann Smythe wasn’t even in the category to question what he was doing.
Stress - not defending

I am quite amazed at how many people here think it would have been easy for Ann Smyth to ‘just tell someone’ and that everything would have been stopped. There are so many other cases (eg Cyril Smith) where establishment figures have been allowed to continue to abuse children. And corporal punishment was not even illegal - there was so much that nobody wanted to talk about.

The fact is that this was widely reported to the police and other members of the clergy. This man was a powerful establishment figure and his bullying would not have stopped at those closest to him. He was brazen and manipulative.

Even if his wife had left him, could she have retained custody of her children? Would they actually have become more not less vulnerable? I doubt her lifestyle was pleasant, in spite of the financial trappings. But I really doubt that she had the power to change things against the weight of the establishment who would have covered up for her husband.

I am not denying the bravery of others here who have left abusive relationships with little more than the clothes they were wearing, and I was in an abusive relationship for a very long time too. But I was not supported when I did have a courage to report it to my GP or when the police came to our house as a result of a report by a member of the public. And my husband had nothing like the social and political power that this man enjoyed. But he told lots of lies about me, and it was easier for people to believe that I was the problem.

The documentary was a indepth study in the family dynamics. Especially episode 2.

I didn't want to watch it at first, but my husband was at a prestigious boarding school in the 70s, less than 50 miles from Winchester College, so we watched it together out of interest.

It was stated that the wife was a mere 16 year old when she was swept off her feet by Smyth who had just finished at Cambridge. After marrying him she quickly realised something was wrong, yet she went on to have all those children. As stated earlier, I believe she enjoyed the lifestyle too much to do anything.

The saddest bit was the daughter behind her veil walking up the aisle on her father's arm feeling sick about his deeds. Heartbreaking, and heartbroken, on what should have been her happiest day.

She was weak, and controlled but to allow her own child to be beaten is not normal He was the abuser she helped cover it up She was the main person who could have stopped it all but she didn’t No where has it said she was ever beaten, hit or hurt so she herself was not a victim of DV she was just ‘under his controlling spell’ and I can’t help thinking she liked the rich life style and basking in his popularity
Most people would have left when the girls had to be kept upstairs out of the way while the boys had ‘fun’

She didn’t marry him in the dark ages she married him a few years after I married, she could have left even though there wasn’t a lot of help or understanding of break ups and divorce
She had a comfortable life style with a popular clever presumed, benevolent husband she chose to stay and be part of his ‘game’

A whole generation before my Dad was a lovely gentle man but my mum was certainly not subservient and she would have soon told him if he stepped out of line so I m not buying the ‘bride of the times’ theory

Absolutely disgusting! And he called himself a Christian!

Thanks GrannyGravy13 for highlighting this programme.

The horror, the cover up, the sheer arrogance of running rampage knowing his back - like so many others' - was covered over & over with no fear of discovery or punishment, so sure of his hideous pals seeing him right.

Organised religion stinks, too open to horror committed behind closed doors, hiding behind big skirts and silly hats, completely untouchable. Evil.

Lahlah65

I am quite amazed at how many people here think it would have been easy for Ann Smyth to ‘just tell someone’ and that everything would have been stopped. There are so many other cases (eg Cyril Smith) where establishment figures have been allowed to continue to abuse children. And corporal punishment was not even illegal - there was so much that nobody wanted to talk about.

The fact is that this was widely reported to the police and other members of the clergy. This man was a powerful establishment figure and his bullying would not have stopped at those closest to him. He was brazen and manipulative.

Even if his wife had left him, could she have retained custody of her children? Would they actually have become more not less vulnerable? I doubt her lifestyle was pleasant, in spite of the financial trappings. But I really doubt that she had the power to change things against the weight of the establishment who would have covered up for her husband.

I am not denying the bravery of others here who have left abusive relationships with little more than the clothes they were wearing, and I was in an abusive relationship for a very long time too. But I was not supported when I did have a courage to report it to my GP or when the police came to our house as a result of a report by a member of the public. And my husband had nothing like the social and political power that this man enjoyed. But he told lots of lies about me, and it was easier for people to believe that I was the problem.

She helped to hide what he did. Only one person knows her motivation and she isn't saying much. Did she get some sort of kick about her powerful husband or from tending to the wounds he inflicted or was she prepared to ignore anything to protect her marriage and lifestyle. Would she have helped him hide the evidence if a child died.

Whatever she is despicable and should be locked up.

Nannee49

Thanks GrannyGravy13 for highlighting this programme.

The horror, the cover up, the sheer arrogance of running rampage knowing his back - like so many others' - was covered over & over with no fear of discovery or punishment, so sure of his hideous pals seeing him right.

Organised religion stinks, too open to horror committed behind closed doors, hiding behind big skirts and silly hats, completely untouchable. Evil.

Did his "hideous pals" see what his wife saw? He did it but she was his coconspirator.

I think she was terrified of him. She said she came to realise there were two sides to this man.

Lahlah65 it’s definitely not easy to be a battered wife whether it’s physical or mental abuse or both but when children are involved you find the courage I would have lived in a tent to get my children away if he’d have ever touched them.
Perhaps it’s her personality but she seemed very under invested, very bland and lacking in spirit, even in her apology as an old lady it was weak at best She could have told someone, even a hint, could have probably saved those boys

I think she liked to be within his glory, his enthusiasm and popularity and anything bad that came with it was worth it
You can’t blame the era, you can’t blame the upbringing she knew what was going on. She was weak at best and a coconspirator at worst

However he was the abuser and escaped by flipping dying where is the justice

He had four children one died early where was the third one anyone know if anything was said as to why she didn’t take part

theworriedwell I wasn't making any distinction between the official co-conspiritors who covered this appalling man's back & his wife, ditto.

Nannee49

theworriedwell I wasn't making any distinction between the official co-conspiritors who covered this appalling man's back & his wife, ditto.

Except we know exactly what she knew, do we know exactly what others knew? I don't know as I didn't watch the documentary but I saw her on the news.

I don't think anyone assumes that it is easy to leave a controlling relationship. Not agreeing with something doesn't mean that you don't understand the situation - it just means you disagree.

I disagree that she had no choice. She could have gone to the police herself, or taken a beaten boy to the police. She could have contacted the school, or the people running the camps. She could have done all sorts of things, but instead she mopped up the blood.

Staying with someone who mistreats you is one thing, and I have sympathy for those who do so. Staying with someone who is abusing your child is quite another, and IMO goes against most mothers' instinct to protect her children.

I also wish people would stop referring to this as corporal punishment, particularly if they haven't watched the documentary. I don't approve of that either, but this was a long way from even 'six of the best' at school. It was sustained beating, with blood and trauma, and both the victims and the abuser were naked. It was abuse.

He had four children, one died early where was the third one anyone know if anything was said as to why she didn’t take part?

I'm guessing because she couldn't bear to be in the same room as her mother, Bluebelle. But we don't know for sure.

I'm only saying this because we know that the eldest child who died, never ever mentioned her parents, not even to her husband. Her children never knew their grandparents. That sounds to me like she was protecting her own family. We know that none of them went to his funeral. They were estranged.

Maybe the other sister felt the same way, and couldn't bear to come face to face with her mother, and so decided not to take part. She was happy to tell her story to the cameras, but not see her mother.

The daughter who was in the room with the mother was younger by a long way. Maybe she saw less of what was going on.

I’m currently reading Rev Richard Coles’ “A Death in the Parish” and he mentions abuse of boys at summer camps. It makes me shudder, so much damage.

Even if his wife had left him, could she have retained custody of her children? Would they actually have become more not less vulnerable? I doubt her lifestyle was pleasant, in spite of the financial trappings. But I really doubt that she had the power to change things against the weight of the establishment who would have covered up for her husband.

Very true, Lahlah65

Bluebelle, as Lahlah65 says, with his power and influence, he might have gained custody of the children had his wife left him. They would have then been in an even worse position. With the power of the Church, the Establishment and the fact that he was a barrister too, John Smyth might well have gained custody.

Stockholm Syndrome is an interesting point too, Iam64