The great feminisation theory.

Essexgirl145

Women can always provide the rolls provided by men, but the men of the west have become too soft. Too feminine. They do need their traditional rolls back.

This in one😊

LauraNorderr

Conservative Party had the first woman PM, now on the third. Labour yet to recognise a suitable woman.
Oh and to be fair, I have heard somewhere that labour has the first female chancellor.

Starmer has surrounded himself with women - look at the front bench at PMQs. Unforgettably I don't think any of them are doing a good job.

Its not about numbers of politicians, you are entirely missing the point here

this is to belittle a whole movement of women

who struggled for real change and are still tackling high levels male abuse in our communities:

Many men are still often suffering from the straitjacket of judgemental traditional masculinity (ie, ideas about being a success, being a 'loser", unable to share feelings) and quite often in "AIBU" we have men from our generation who insist on doing little in the home but insisting on control...

And women, we are still only beginning to be "heard" properly on issues like abuse and getting police involved/being supported/believed, and proper support for going back to work. Long way to go.

Women have proved time and time again that they can fulfil professional roles just as well as men can. For generations women have managed to excel at traditionally male jobs when they have won the opportunity.

It is for this reason I cannot find myself too worked up about it all, either way.
As in, yes lots of women in top professional roles. In largely office situations.
But equally, there are endless[often non office based] jobs that are still very much predominately men led.

Evens itself out in my opinion.

The Stepford Wives movement is unlikely to gain a foothold in the UK. We have the Suffragette legacy to remind us of the need to fight for our rights. The trans women activists, who continue to try to gain access to women's cloakrooms, prisons, hospital wards, refugee, rape crisis centres etc, seem to be losing the political argument that they are women (thank you the Supreme Court). We need to continue to be protective of our rights as there are men who want to remove them.

Christian fundamentalists meets the Handwives Tale .. its so exhausting living this life a century later .. I SO hope it improves for my Daughter & her daughter 🙏🥰

☝️this is where people who wish to protect women's rights should be concentrating.
Setting right against left is a strategy to confuse the public. Don't we know better now?

My post was highlighting GMT8

The argument needs to be more nuanced. Each sex is more suited to certain work than others. We'll always need some female police officers and soldiers and some male nurses but the majority will always be one sex.

Anybody read about the Nordic gender equality paradox? Where more women choose to work in the 'caring' nursing/educational etc. sector, and men in engineering/tech etc?
Nature or nurture?

Replying to Namsnanny

ON: Nature or nurture, and violence against women

I think it's an interesting question, a mixture of both,

Here is the Nordic paradox theory in full

"The "Nordic Paradox" refers to contradictory trends in highly gender-equal Nordic societies, primarily the coexistence of strong gender equality with a surprisingly low representation of women in top leadership roles (the Gender Equality Paradox)

and disproportionately high rates of intimate partner violence (IPV) against women (the IPV Paradox).

This highlights that while Nordic countries excel in women's labour participation and welfare support, systemic issues, cultural norms, and policy impacts (like favouring shorter work hours) can hinder female advancement and fail to fully address violence despite progressive ideals"

I believe it's based on issues of our time, and grossly over simplifies behaviour rather than "fixed in stone for ever"

The main point I'd like to make is that the apparent rise in violence is not because of a change in male behaviour but that in Nordic countries that law is such that women now report incidents they have not previously
The problem of certain kinds of male behaviour has not gone away, and progressive countries are still trying to work out how to deal with it and make changes.

Centuries of patriarchy in terms of matters like male violence, the desire to control women, does not go away in a matter of 40 years or so

The other point I'd like to make is that the so called paradox assumes that women if given the opportunity, actually want these "high value" leadership roles.

I honestly don't know if its nature or nurture: whether the way some women who do rise to a high level are currently vilified in social media and often in a particularly nasty way like rape threats from men who feel disempowered as a group,

Or whether is is a born disinclination to take a "lead" in the way our current society is structured.

Currently this is true

"Where more women choose to work in the 'caring' nursing/educational etc. sector, and men in engineering/tech etc?

But is it true for now, the way we are still brought up, our sense of selves, our confidence, the possibilities of working outside of gendered expectations still relatively new, and could change over time?

ArthurAskey

I have to say the most women police officers are totally useless when it comes to policing the streets.

You have not met our 2 PCSOs. Both under 5 ft, they terrify the young tearaways around here!!

Yes, I found this a bizarre statement. I watch quite a lot of TV police reality programmes. Police women have a way of handling some men in aggressive situations at times that are far more effective than men. All in the psychology of it.

Few very drunk men can compete with a well trained police woman who has a baton or taser and knows how to use them. And those who have martial arts training at the most basic levels are substantially advantaged.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Years ago I read a statement which very roughly said “my husband makes the important decisions like who we should go to war with and what cars we should have, whereas I decide on the smaller issues such as which school the children should attend and where we should live”. I’ve probably got the second part a bit wrong, but it both amused me and (thinking of my parents) struck a chord.

That feels rather familiar in terms of what Mum and Dad actually said, but actually, apart from politics..

She was da boss.

However that also involved her being busy every evening as she worked full time as a teacher, and Dad sitting watching TV. and she got up at 6am, but to be fair that was partly to have a little sit down and time for herself before the morning chaos with 4 children started.

While this is slightly left of field the nature vs nurture debate is an interesting one.

I work in early childhood and for a few years we had a consultant visit weekly to assist with the educational programme. She had a PHD in early childhood and insisted that gender is a social construct.

She tried imposing all sorts of activities and actually removed toys she deemed as reinforcing the social norms.

She had no children of her own and clashed with parents on a regular basis.

She would literally push the boys into the art area and insist they produce something. She removed the dolls and cots etc on the day she worked at the centre all of which was totally at odds with regulations related to play based learning.

After a few years and a change of director she was not invited back, and all the staff were relieved, to say the least.

On a different tangent I remember the expression, 'Men end life and women create life' and it held true for millennia.

Times are changing and unfortunately some men feel threatened by women who challenge this long held belief.

As a parent and teacher I try to temper gender norms but do NOT stifle innate needs, we need to find the middle ground and I sense and we are slowly finding our way.

I think that you are right, Dorrian. Some work on which parts of the brain respond to certain stimuli suggest that some people are better suited to roles requiring empathy and others to careers in which analytics are important.
Perhaps this means that traditional " caring" professions may continue to attract more women, and subjects such as engineering possibly be more likely to be attractive to men.
The important part is choice. The feminist movement was clear on equal pay and equal opportunities for women and men. If a man wants a career in nursing, or a woman as an engineer, that should be open to both.
It does not, necessarily mean that Early Years jobs will be filled 50 % by men and women, or that heads of international engineering firms will automatically be half and half men and women.
It allows, surely, men and women to choose their work/life balance. Some will want the top job, and understand the impact of this on other aspects of their life: others will decide that the price is too high.
As an addendum - my highest paid, family member, head of a department of engineering in an international business is my DIL.

I see the feminization of the workplace as the men let women run things - then the men take less responsibility. A growing number seem to take no responsibility for anything, I think that is very bad for society in general

David49

I see the feminization of the workplace as the men let women run things - then the men take less responsibility. A growing number seem to take no responsibility for anything, I think that is very bad for society in general

Blimey that is a loaded post!

We do nto wanr masculinised work psaces any more than we want feminised work places. What we want are work spaces that are nurturing for everyone; male and female, regardless of culture or ethnicity, whether you are disabled, neuro diverse or just plain awkward.

In the past many workplaces, especially above operative level, have been primarily male places run to suit men. Times have changed. Workplaces at every level have become more diverse. so cultures must change.

Thank you MOnica

That is where we want to go.

David, there are so very many ways of taking responsibility, for men, and for women. Traditional male roles are not the only ones for men, and indeed have been a straitjacket for far too many.

Maremia

They want us to be 'surrendered wives', and some women in the States are going along with this coercion.

Some women in the States will prefer that way of being - submission and giving over of responsibility totally to your partner.

I'm not against choice. Some women will be coerced but those it genuinely suits do exist and aren't "letting the side down".

Whitewavemark2

David49

I see the feminization of the workplace as the men let women run things - then the men take less responsibility. A growing number seem to take no responsibility for anything, I think that is very bad for society in general

Blimey that is a loaded post!

I genuinely despair at the behavior and lifestyle of a great many young men.

They don’t need to take responsibility they have each other for companionship, spend their money on beer, (or weed), cars, gambling or whatever they want, pick up a girl whenever they want, no commitment. I’m glad I don’t have to find workers, even 20 yrs ago women were a far better prospect for getting the job done

Any one ever read about the Nordic Gender Paradox?
Very interesting stats on equality of opportunity and the unexpected outcomes with regards to personal choice of careers.
It appears to contradict the perceived outcomes.