Woman shot and killed by ICE officers in Minneapolis, Minnesota

David49

Regardless of right and wrong or the rights of the individual, you do NOT argue with anyone that’s pointing a gun at you. That’s when tragedies happen, however well trained police are they are human and make mistakes, we see this repeatedly and it’s no consolation to the victim that error has been made.

That why it’s a really good idea to follow orders of the police, save your argument for later.

THIS!!! If people in the media stopped the hysteria over law enforcement, if folks would just cooperate, so much of this would be avoided!

A person always has the right to see a judge and give those arguments. And worse case, if you did what you did, broke the law, then pay the penalty. And next time, don't do it.

Starfish

“Normal" as in, plenty of off the cuff, not so smart comments, a lot of flubs and even dumb remarks, is what I meant.

Not polished, prepared in the can remarks of a professional politician.

Because, he's not a professional politician, that's a fact.”

Just out of curiosity, you consider the above to be an asset and something to be admired?

He’s the leader of one of the most powerful countries in our world, don’t you think it would be good to be well prepared, professional and yes even polished, with all info at hand and no “dumb comments” at every public appearance?

Btw, do you live in the USA?

“THIS!!! If people in the media stopped the hysteria over law enforcement, if folks would just cooperate, so much of this would be avoided!

A person always has the right to see a judge and give those arguments. And worse case, if you did what you did, broke the law, then pay the penalty. And next time, don't do it.”

Oh dear, bit difficult to do this if you’re dead

Cossy

Btw, do you live in the USA?

S\he claims to.

I read that the new militia has only received training of about 6 weeks.

I do wonder how many of them are from the proud boys gangs and white supremacist. They certainly act like them.

Starfire57

MayBee70

Starfire57

MayBee70

So Starfire is an anti vacc’er too. That figures….

I've had all my vaccines, so no not antivaxxer. I just didn't bother with the Covid vaccine....too new, no long term trials on effectiveness or side effects.

Didn't want to be a Guinea pig.

Well, turns out, it never stopped the spread.

Supposedly then, they decided it made symptoms better instead. But since there were so many mild or asymptomatic cases reported in the beginning anyway, before the vaccines, I figure, that claim is questionable to say the least.

They even changed the definition of a vaccine for it. So much money was made. Just have to wonder.

But, I do believe in most vaccines, the old tech ones that actually provide immunity, thus the name immunizations....

So how do you feel about the way your government is putting people off vaccinating against measles?

What are you talking about? I saw RFK saying the best way to avoid measles is the MMR vaccine. Maybe I"m not up to speed on that; mostly I hear talk about freedom of choice in vaccination rather than recommending no vaccines.

“Cases of the incredibly contagious measles virus are continuing to rise in Texas and across the US as the nation's top health official promotes treatments not supported by health experts.
To date this year, the US has recorded more than 250 measles cases across several states, including Oklahoma, Alaska, California, Georgia, Florida, New York, Kentucky and Rhode Island.
The epicentre remains in western Texas and neighbouring New Mexico, where two unvaccinated people have died from the virus.
It comes as Health Secretary Robert F Kennedy, Jr continues to focus on unproven treatments like cod liver oil, and his casting doubt on the safety of the vaccines.
The BBC has contacted the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) for comment.
Measles is a dangerous virus that has no cure and can lead to a host of complications, including pneumonia and brain swelling. It can be deadly.
Vaccination rates must be 95% or higher for the broader population to be protected, but several communities where the virus is spreading have rates well below that.
The US declared measles eliminated in 2000, but outbreaks have continued to crop up in recent years as anti-vaccine sentiments have grown.
Health officials say cases have shown no signs of slowing down in western Texas, where two pregnant women recently reported infections.
Across the state's border, New Mexico now has more than 30 cases, while new infections have been confirmed in Oklahoma, New York and in Los Angeles this week.
In several instances, unvaccinated Americans have spread measles to others after contracting the virus outside of the country, including on Long Island in New York, where a baby caught the virus while traveling with family, health officials say.
Cases are also on the rise in Canada, which has reported 146 infections.
Kennedy has so far offered mixed messages about the outbreaks.
At first, he suggested the rising cases were "not unusual" for the US, before backtracking and calling the situation "serious".
Then, this week, in an interview with Fox News, Kennedy suggested cod liver oil and other alternative measles treatments had proven "miraculous".
The remarks are resonating with some residents in western Texas, said Ron Cook, a family physician and health official who is helping doctors respond to the outbreak in Lubbock, where a child died of measles this month.
There, a handful of physicians, external are handing out cod liver oil to parents of sick children who are sceptical of measles immunizations, Dr Cook said. One physician told NBC News he was just trying to help families with the alternative treatment "like Bobby Kennedy is trying to do".
Vitamin A - a nutrient found in cod liver oil - is sometimes offered as a part of a treatment for measles, especially if someone is deficient, Dr Cook said. But, he added, it is difficult to monitor the levels of the vitamin in cod liver oil, which could endanger children if they are given too much of the vitamin or other nutrients it contains.
"What disappoints me the most is that they're not talking about the vaccine," Dr Cook said.
He said he believed that it was a missed opportunity to engage with vaccine-sceptical communities to help slow the spread of measles.
Kennedy, this week, offered a conditional endorsement of the vaccine, telling Fox News it was "recommended" for the Texas Mennonite community - the origin of the outbreak - while also suggesting some of the children had been harmed by the vaccines, which have been thoroughly studied and found to be safe.
This week, the Children's Health Defense, the anti-vaccine nonprofit that Kennedy founded, updated and re-promoted a 2021 book in which Kennedy called measles vaccines "risky".
"Measles outbreaks have been fabricated to create fear that in turn forces government officials to 'do something,'" he said, adding that benefits of the vaccine had been "exaggerated".
This is from the BBC last year.

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Cossy

Starfish

“Normal" as in, plenty of off the cuff, not so smart comments, a lot of flubs and even dumb remarks, is what I meant.

Not polished, prepared in the can remarks of a professional politician.

Because, he's not a professional politician, that's a fact.”

Just out of curiosity, you consider the above to be an asset and something to be admired?

He’s the leader of one of the most powerful countries in our world, don’t you think it would be good to be well prepared, professional and yes even polished, with all info at hand and no “dumb comments” at every public appearance?

It's both an asset and a hinderance. It's real, not fake, which is rare in todays political bs tell them what they want to hear politicians.

But, he does put his foot in his mouth too many times as a consequence of that reality.

And what I do not admire is his tendency to hold grudges, although, I understand being called a fascist for how many years now might make someone pretty resentful and vindictive.

But he should not let that rule him, unfortunately it sometimes does.

Someone on Facebook, yes, I know, has asked was that Officer also at the January 6th insurrection?

Officers with firearms should go through all sorts of training.

So very scary on here that there are people, privileged with an education and living in a democratic country, that trot out things like ‘just follow the law’ ‘just obey orders’.
We need brave people to challenge unjust practices and unjust leaders and who are prepared to intervene to support those on the wrong side of out of control brutality. Without them nothing will change.
Maybe the French Resistance should have ‘just obeyed the law’, maybe Edith Cavell should have, maybe the Tolpuddle Martyrs or Paul Stephenson or Mary Barbour? Without brave people intervening against bad leaders, bad laws and practices nothing would change and injustices and out of control rulers would continue destroying lives with impunity.

The irony - the USA is a country that was build by migrants - illegal migrants - ruled by a convicted felon whose mother is a migrant telling us all just how much of the world he intends to seize illegally and how great he is making his country!

Syracute

Grandmabatty

Starfish, you are helping to derail this thread with your numerous 'opinions' about other matters. I suggest you start your own threads on the merits or otherwise of vaccines.

Thank you GB for pointing out that Starfire is fishy for derailing this thread .It is exactly what she is here for.
She clearly wants to derail from the fact that Trump has created the danger by his empowering a group called
ICE that executes citizens and thinks that’s ok .

Nah, no derailing here. Someone decided to call me an antivaxxer over an example I made in a post, then other people followed suit. All I did was address that.

I think it's ok for the government to go after people who break the law, I don't usually think executing citizens is ok.

But clearly, if people just look at what happened, without any prejudice or political motivation, this was not an intentional plan to run over a law officer, nor a murder of a citizen.

This was clearly a horrible accident, mistakes made while tensions were high. It should be a lesson in caution when dealing with these tense issues out there.

David49

My wife has a brother and sister in the US, one Democrat one Republican, so we hear opposite opinions continiously, yesterday we had breakfast with democrat brother in law. We had to change the subject 3 times to avoid politics, whatever happens in the US it’s not going to affect our family politics

David you must acknowledge that it is TRAUMATIZING times for US citizens who are seeing their country and values be derailed by a despot who thinks he is above the law.
Who is acting in a lawless manner creating hate and division amongs friends and families . He is fomenting war calling for invasions of even a peaceful country like Greenland . That is why so many of us ( US citizens) are distraught and need to talk about it.

An Officer, who had not psychologically recovered from a previous incident, should not have been with that patrol.

Maremia

Someone on Facebook, yes, I know, has asked was that Officer also at the January 6th insurrection?

Yes, as I said above I suspect a large % are proud boys, insurrectionists and white supremacists.

I must paste the “new history” of Jan 6th re-written by Trump. Truly Orwellian

(The new history) is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
He who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present controls the past.

It was Roos’s intent to execute .
He called them fxxcking bxxches .
That was in his headspace.
That is what he did.
They were clearly driving away.

StoneofDestiny

So very scary on here that there are people, privileged with an education and living in a democratic country, that trot out things like ‘just follow the law’ ‘just obey orders’.
We need brave people to challenge unjust practices and unjust leaders and who are prepared to intervene to support those on the wrong side of out of control brutality. Without them nothing will change.
Maybe the French Resistance should have ‘just obeyed the law’, maybe Edith Cavell should have, maybe the Tolpuddle Martyrs or Paul Stephenson or Mary Barbour? Without brave people intervening against bad leaders, bad laws and practices nothing would change and injustices and out of control rulers would continue destroying lives with impunity.

The irony - the USA is a country that was build by migrants - illegal migrants - ruled by a convicted felon whose mother is a migrant telling us all just how much of the world he intends to seize illegally and how great he is making his country!

If you read a bit on history, you would know that there were no illegal migrants in the early years of our country, as there were not yet laws concerning that.

I would agree, people shouldn't just lie down if laws are unjust or unnecessary. But it's clear, a nation needs it's sovereignty and the safety of it's citizens.

My god, even if a person comes to rent a home you own, there are background checks, up front payment, security deposits and agreements to be signed.

They don't just walk into your house and say honey, I'm home!! (In a Ricky Ricardo way).

No country should just let the laws be broken, let criminals pass through unchallenged, that puts citizens in danger and causes many other issues as well.

Oh, sorry, when I say our country, I mean the US, not the UK...

Being law enforcement doesn’t give you the right to play judge, jury, and executioner. These cowards in masks cannot be defended by any decent human. That lowlife took a headshot at a woman who was not endangering his life. He will reap what he sows in this life or the next.

Cossy

“THIS!!! If people in the media stopped the hysteria over law enforcement, if folks would just cooperate, so much of this would be avoided!

A person always has the right to see a judge and give those arguments. And worse case, if you did what you did, broke the law, then pay the penalty. And next time, don't do it.”

Oh dear, bit difficult to do this if you’re dead

I agree Cossy.
And it very much depends how you perceive law enforcement, for me it does not mean giving conflicting orders to an innocent citizen who is unarmed and then shooting her three times.
Law enforcement is about the officers also abiding by the laws they enforce, or at least that sounds like how it should work in a first world democracy.

But we are not talking about 1 unfortunate person killed, we are talking about 32 people who died in custody in 2025.

According to the NYT 9 people have been shot just since September, apart from what happens once the person is in custody.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

StoneofDestiny

So very scary on here that there are people, privileged with an education and living in a democratic country, that trot out things like ‘just follow the law’ ‘just obey orders’.
We need brave people to challenge unjust practices and unjust leaders and who are prepared to intervene to support those on the wrong side of out of control brutality. Without them nothing will change.
Maybe the French Resistance should have ‘just obeyed the law’, maybe Edith Cavell should have, maybe the Tolpuddle Martyrs or Paul Stephenson or Mary Barbour? Without brave people intervening against bad leaders, bad laws and practices nothing would change and injustices and out of control rulers would continue destroying lives with impunity.

The irony - the USA is a country that was build by migrants - illegal migrants - ruled by a convicted felon whose mother is a migrant telling us all just how much of the world he intends to seize illegally and how great he is making his country!

You could be first in line to go and challenge things there then?
The fact is, the US is not in a war situation so any similarities with the last world war or anything else isn’t relevant.
The police and immigration are armed, are on a job which requires going after criminals and illegal immigrants and must be obeyed as any error on your own part in disobeying them could lead to your own injury or even death.So protest something in other ways as most people there do.

MayBee70

Starfire57

MayBee70

Starfire57

MayBee70

So Starfire is an anti vacc’er too. That figures….

I've had all my vaccines, so no not antivaxxer. I just didn't bother with the Covid vaccine....too new, no long term trials on effectiveness or side effects.

Didn't want to be a Guinea pig.

Well, turns out, it never stopped the spread.

Supposedly then, they decided it made symptoms better instead. But since there were so many mild or asymptomatic cases reported in the beginning anyway, before the vaccines, I figure, that claim is questionable to say the least.

They even changed the definition of a vaccine for it. So much money was made. Just have to wonder.

But, I do believe in most vaccines, the old tech ones that actually provide immunity, thus the name immunizations....

So how do you feel about the way your government is putting people off vaccinating against measles?

What are you talking about? I saw RFK saying the best way to avoid measles is the MMR vaccine. Maybe I"m not up to speed on that; mostly I hear talk about freedom of choice in vaccination rather than recommending no vaccines.

“Cases of the incredibly contagious measles virus are continuing to rise in Texas and across the US as the nation's top health official promotes treatments not supported by health experts.
To date this year, the US has recorded more than 250 measles cases across several states, including Oklahoma, Alaska, California, Georgia, Florida, New York, Kentucky and Rhode Island.
The epicentre remains in western Texas and neighbouring New Mexico, where two unvaccinated people have died from the virus.
It comes as Health Secretary Robert F Kennedy, Jr continues to focus on unproven treatments like cod liver oil, and his casting doubt on the safety of the vaccines.
The BBC has contacted the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) for comment.
Measles is a dangerous virus that has no cure and can lead to a host of complications, including pneumonia and brain swelling. It can be deadly.
Vaccination rates must be 95% or higher for the broader population to be protected, but several communities where the virus is spreading have rates well below that.
The US declared measles eliminated in 2000, but outbreaks have continued to crop up in recent years as anti-vaccine sentiments have grown.
Health officials say cases have shown no signs of slowing down in western Texas, where two pregnant women recently reported infections.
Across the state's border, New Mexico now has more than 30 cases, while new infections have been confirmed in Oklahoma, New York and in Los Angeles this week.
In several instances, unvaccinated Americans have spread measles to others after contracting the virus outside of the country, including on Long Island in New York, where a baby caught the virus while traveling with family, health officials say.
Cases are also on the rise in Canada, which has reported 146 infections.
Kennedy has so far offered mixed messages about the outbreaks.
At first, he suggested the rising cases were "not unusual" for the US, before backtracking and calling the situation "serious".
Then, this week, in an interview with Fox News, Kennedy suggested cod liver oil and other alternative measles treatments had proven "miraculous".
The remarks are resonating with some residents in western Texas, said Ron Cook, a family physician and health official who is helping doctors respond to the outbreak in Lubbock, where a child died of measles this month.
There, a handful of physicians, external are handing out cod liver oil to parents of sick children who are sceptical of measles immunizations, Dr Cook said. One physician told NBC News he was just trying to help families with the alternative treatment "like Bobby Kennedy is trying to do".
Vitamin A - a nutrient found in cod liver oil - is sometimes offered as a part of a treatment for measles, especially if someone is deficient, Dr Cook said. But, he added, it is difficult to monitor the levels of the vitamin in cod liver oil, which could endanger children if they are given too much of the vitamin or other nutrients it contains.
"What disappoints me the most is that they're not talking about the vaccine," Dr Cook said.
He said he believed that it was a missed opportunity to engage with vaccine-sceptical communities to help slow the spread of measles.
Kennedy, this week, offered a conditional endorsement of the vaccine, telling Fox News it was "recommended" for the Texas Mennonite community - the origin of the outbreak - while also suggesting some of the children had been harmed by the vaccines, which have been thoroughly studied and found to be safe.
This week, the Children's Health Defense, the anti-vaccine nonprofit that Kennedy founded, updated and re-promoted a 2021 book in which Kennedy called measles vaccines "risky".
"Measles outbreaks have been fabricated to create fear that in turn forces government officials to 'do something,'" he said, adding that benefits of the vaccine had been "exaggerated".
This is from the BBC last year.

One of the many interviews where Kennedy recommends the measles vaccine www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgEbxTuG_r4