No mandatory digital ID after all.

Madgran77

Mamie

The dead wood in question being IKEA furniture. Seems obvious to me.

And? Referencing IKEA for the sake of some nasty pointless dig was stupid after eulogising about his visit. He might as well have said "Liok at me I dont mean a word I say!"

I may be thinking literally, but what is wooden furniture if it isn't dead wood?
I agree Petra, my family do their IKEA shopping here in France, as it is a wonderfully peaceful experience compared with the UK . 😂

Mamie

Madgran77

Mamie

The dead wood in question being IKEA furniture. Seems obvious to me.

And? Referencing IKEA for the sake of some nasty pointless dig was stupid after eulogising about his visit. He might as well have said "Liok at me I dont mean a word I say!"

I may be thinking literally, but what is wooden furniture if it isn't dead wood?
I agree Petra, my family do their IKEA shopping here in France, as it is a wonderfully peaceful experience compared with the UK . 😂

Not only that, it’s cheaper in France ( and other eu countries)

...and he was basically trashing the work of the employees he had just been eulogising about! Dear dear me!

Business as usual for this woeful government. U Turns seem to be the only policy that is consistent. Before Sir Keir Starmer, l thought Liz Truss was the worst ever prime minister but at least she only had three days in which to inflict serious damage on the country. When are we going to get a serious prime minister with gravitas and principles they actually follow through? This is how I feel about both main political parties.

*I hope he didn’t take his wife.
IKEA is known as the ultimate relationship test 🤦🏼‍♀️*

🤣🤣

Doodledog

Agreed. PMQs has become more about performance than politics. Charisma is more important to some than their policies or arguments. It's depressing.

Hear, hear👏👏👏

I’ve stopped watching the pantomime performance that is PMQs. If I want to see theatre I’ll go to the theatre!

Madgran77

*I hope he didn’t take his wife.
IKEA is known as the ultimate relationship test 🤦🏼‍♀️*

🤣🤣

😂

We only went to IKEA together once!

I wish more Gransnetters would wake up to the realisation that digitalising identity is very dangerous for personal liberty. Nothing to hide? Great, but all knowledge is power. Once everyone is digitalised they can be kept track of and controlled. Your 'carbon credits' can be recorded, the miles you travel etc and if you do not toe the line your funds can be stopped. This amount of control is the stated goal of the very powerful but unelected WEF, and Davos is more important to Starmer than Westminster. He has said this, but too few people are paying attention to what is REALLY going on.

Mamie

Most European countries have cards rather than digital ID at the moment, though there is discussion about changing.
I have been using the Gov.uk One Login this week and my identity was checked digitally by facial imaging matched with my passport. I honestly can't see why people think it is a problem.

OH tried renewing his driving licence using Gov.UK One Login. Nothing worked as he has not got a smart phone and mine is too simplistic so he has had to do it the old fashioned way and send it by post. Not confident about the new licence return as we just had a post delivery today, the first since 20th December,
I think ID cards are a good idea and wouldn't have any objections to carrying one.

chattykathy

An ID card would be immensely useful for my elderly mum who no longer has a driving licence or passport. She also lives in a care home so doesn't have utility bills. It took a lot of messing about to renew her Blue Badge last year. I'll also be having one and can't understand people's resistance to it.

This is a good example of the possible use of digital ID cards. You need a passport or driving licence to be able to open a new bank/building society account now. Photo ID is required for so many services.

My nephew, who has never travelled abroad and does not have a driving license as he is visually impaired and will never be able to drive would also benefit from a digital ID card.

Govt.one is a portal that enables people to log onto any government service. It’s an upgrade to the previous Government Gateway system, but is more comprehensive and sits alongside some other positive changes being made. For example, the verification should help to reduce the number of fraudulent businesses being set up at Companies House.

People who are serious worried about access to their personal data as described by Terribull might think about how much is already online - this feels a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has gone. Digital ID cards would just be a physical manifestation of what already exist. We are already required to use photo ID in the form of driving licences and passports which are all just the front end of massive online digital databases.

No doubt these could be used/abused by bad actors, either within our state or beyond. But we are in a democracy and to some extent it’s up to us to choose what kind of society we want to live in. However, the digital genie is well out of the bottle now - it’s definitely not going back. We need to learn to live with it and manage all the new risks and challenges that come along with it, whether we like it or not.

There are many ways in which I would find digital ID useful. I do a lot online already. But I don’t like the idea of a ‘joined-up’ system that can track everything we do. We can, up to a point, opt out if we want to, and shop in shops using cash etc.

If anyone doubts how easily tracked we are already, watch an episode of Hunted. It is frightening how difficult it is, in a ‘free’ society, to stay out of sight of authorities who want to track you down.

As it stands, the odds are firmly against that being a problem for most law-abiding people. But we don’t know what will happen in future. Look at the changes in the US recently. Or how people’s rights vanished across Europe in the 30s and 40s.

If the only way to move from place to place, or to buy a loaf of bread is to use a digital method, and face-recognition technology can find individuals in crowds, any sort of autonomy becomes impossible. People can be punished for minor offences such as jaywalking by being unable to access cinemas, or disallowed from buying chocolate. That might seem trivial, but it is hugely controlling, and could permeate every aspect of our lives.

I know that sounds dystopian (and it is), and maybe even a bit hysterical, but it is possible already, and could become reality if we let it.

Doodledog

There are many ways in which I would find digital ID useful. I do a lot online already. But I don’t like the idea of a ‘joined-up’ system that can track everything we do. We can, up to a point, opt out if we want to, and shop in shops using cash etc.

If anyone doubts how easily tracked we are already, watch an episode of Hunted. It is frightening how difficult it is, in a ‘free’ society, to stay out of sight of authorities who want to track you down.

As it stands, the odds are firmly against that being a problem for most law-abiding people. But we don’t know what will happen in future. Look at the changes in the US recently. Or how people’s rights vanished across Europe in the 30s and 40s.

If the only way to move from place to place, or to buy a loaf of bread is to use a digital method, and face-recognition technology can find individuals in crowds, any sort of autonomy becomes impossible. People can be punished for minor offences such as jaywalking by being unable to access cinemas, or disallowed from buying chocolate. That might seem trivial, but it is hugely controlling, and could permeate every aspect of our lives.

I know that sounds dystopian (and it is), and maybe even a bit hysterical, but it is possible already, and could become reality if we let it.

I think the point is that your Digital ID is encrypted on your phone, so you use it to gain access to HMRC, Pension Service etc. it doesn't mean that you are automatically linked to every Government Service at the same time.
Obviously CCTV can track you when you are buying a loaf of bread, but I would regard that as improving my personal safety rather than any kind of threat.

So the constant refrain to opponents of digital ID cards is of course, "but you are on umpteen databases anyway, driving licence, passport, medical records etc". However, they aren't unified and can be somewhat fragmented. As far as medical records are concerned I've often wondered how centralised and up-to-date the NHS one actually is, given on a couple of occasions, not in the last three years, when I last saw a doctor, referring back to a previous matter, that information didn't seem to be there. In any event many would have a limited scope I imagine. Centralised databases are all open to attacks by cyber criminals, as previously posted up thread, Estonia's ID database was to be a blueprint for our own and that had been hacked into. It would only have to be done once for all your most private information to be compromised.

Then there is the question of government surveillance. An alarming example, was exemplified by the odious Justin Trudeau at the helm of a supposed moderate democratic government during the time of Covid, when he locked dissenting truckers out of their own bank accounts because of their opposition to a mandated vaccine. Trudeau's government responded by invoking the 1988 Emergencies Act for the first time, granting the federal government sweeping powers, including the ability to ban gatherings at certain locations and to stop crowdfunding. Subsequently a Canadian Federal judge agreed that on every major point the government's actions were unlawful particularly as to the financial incapacitation, bank account freezes without a court order, or even notices and a chance to respond.

We have no idea, in this increasingly unpredictable world what scenarios could come down the line, just look at Trump's US.

In any case I don't trust this present government on many issues, the grey areas around free speech, but not least their desire to let the Chinese mega embassy to go ahead, with plans for a secret room and a concealed chamber which could offer access to cables carrying millions of of British people's emails and financial data which would give the Chines Communist Party a launch pad for economic warfare against our nation. The potential is alarming, the Chinese are not our friends So why would I trust this government, or indeed any future government with the sort of overreach that could be afforded by a central ID database, unless we totally want to surrender any more of the personal life to the auspices of Big Brother, much of which admittedly they already have.

I understand for some an ID card will make life easier, my objection would have been to them being mandated, so for that U turn I'm grateful.

Well said TerriBull
It’s not just the ID card that worries me it the U-turn. Do you suppose Starmer and his advisers hadn’t thought of the points you raised?
Was he suddenly aware of them and that caused his flip?
The media refer to public pressure and I suppose that is less damaging than him giving the points you raise.

Mollygo

Well said TerriBull
It’s not just the ID card that worries me it the U-turn. Do you suppose Starmer and his advisers hadn’t thought of the points you raised?
Was he suddenly aware of them and that caused his flip?
The media refer to public pressure and I suppose that is less damaging than him giving the points you raise.

Honestly I don't know what they think or whether in fact they think at all! There is a cross party consensus, including many in the Labour party as to opposition regarding the plans for the prospective Chinese super embassy. I can't believe they're even contemplating it on the dubious grounds of closer economic ties whilst simultaneously ignoring the tidal wave of objections as to security and human rights abuses, but they seem cowed by them. Closer links with the most extreme of authoritarian governments who would no doubt love to have us as a vassal state

Very good points, Terribull.

Centralised databases are all open to attacks by cyber criminals, as previously posted up thread, Estonia's ID database was to be a blueprint for our own and that had been hacked into. It would only have to be done once for all your most private information to be compromised.
This in particular is one of the most worrying aspects.

The world seems to be very unstable at the moment.

Carrying actual ID cards with limited but essential information might be a good idea, as in other countries, but digital ID is a step too far.

Mollygo

Well said TerriBull
It’s not just the ID card that worries me it the U-turn. Do you suppose Starmer and his advisers hadn’t thought of the points you raised?
Was he suddenly aware of them and that caused his flip?
The media refer to public pressure and I suppose that is less damaging than him giving the points you raise.

Exactly.
That's what I meant by changing policies randomly seeming rather unimportant to Starmer.
Of course there'll be consequences for him if a PM is seen to be making so many U-turns so regularly.

I know we can be on cctv when buying bread, but that’s not the same as having a record of every time we do it. If someone is attacked in the bakery cctv can help to find the attacker, but otherwise nobody would look at the footage. Software can be set to show if someone buys more than usual, or is in a different town. Usually that’s neither here nor there, but it could be that we don’t want that information made public.

As you say Allira, ID cards with essential information for those that wish and need to have them is a good idea. Mandating digital ID opens up a can of worms and again, similar to the dissenting voices apropos of this prospective Chinese embassy there was also a cross party opposition to the possibility of compulsory ID cards becoming an eventuality. Personally trotting out the line, "I can't see what the objections are" all I can say to that is "such an opinion does not factor in any critical thinking whatsoever, it's a bland and bald statement lacking in any possible foresight. No one can possibly project what may come down the line and how government control could be implemented. As stated, up thread overreach of state control measures have already been used in at least one democratic country which were wholly unethical under the guise of suiting the circumstances. Don't think it couldn't happen here.

I'm not particularly opposed to CCTV cameras or the like, not that I think that the police necessarily take any notice of those as far as shoplifting and other crimes are concerned. When my hairdresser had her car stolen from outside her house she contacted the police with footage she had of the car being broken into. Nah! couldn't care less, just not interested in what she could have given them and they were no help whatsoever. Never mind we have the comfort at least of knowing if one were to have the temerity to misgender an individual, they'd be round your house quicker than you could utter the name "India Willoughby"

Can somebody please explain to me what the objection is to using a Digital ID to access Government Services such as HMRC online?
It is nothing to do with carrying a compulsory card or using it for anything that you don't want to do.
Personally, I find face ID very useful for quick access to my UK bank account. Does nobody else use it?
I really would like to know.

Mamie

Can somebody please explain to me what the objection is to using a Digital ID to access Government Services such as HMRC online?
It is nothing to do with carrying a compulsory card or using it for anything that you don't want to do.
Personally, I find face ID very useful for quick access to my UK bank account. Does nobody else use it?
I really would like to know.

With advances in AI facial recognition has become increasingly easy to hack and steal. I use multi function authentication (l think that's the term) - more than one method - in my case code and fingerprint, more difficult to hack. I wouldn't compromise security for convenience.

Yes multi authentication was a requirement for digital access to HMRC for me, but I also had to match my face to my passport photo, possibly because I don't have a UK phone number, only a French one. It was going to be compulsory for people starting employment, but that has been postponed. Not sure why that is perceived as such a dramatic u turn.
Nobody else was going to have to use it if they didn't want to.