Former Prince Andrew has just been arrested in Norfolk

Virginia Giuffre lied ?

We need to remember that a trafficked individual is seen as outside the consenting adult group. It’s therefore not consensual sex even if between adults.

Usedtobeblonde

Surely even without charges the damage has been done.

I agree, and, what’s more, despite the fact that these charges relate to the sharing of confidential information with Epstein ( and possibly others), I bet that in just a couple of years the ‘varying recollections’ on social media will say that AMW was charged in relation to sex crimes, but ‘got off with it’.

What damage ?

Surely even without charges the damage has been done.

Agree MOnica , there has not yet been any charges

M0nica

Whitewavemark2

The more I read, the more I am coming to the opinion that because of the arcane way the law is structured it will be almost impossible to prove.

The only bit of optimism is that the government gets its act together and updates the law better to fit with modern society.

I am not sure I agree. There have been uite a number of trials for 'Misconduct in Public Office' from prison officers having it off with prisoners, to people charged with crimes similar to those alleged to have been committed by AMW and PM. There have been convictions enough to think that if they had committed crimes, they would be charged and if convicted, sent to prison. But while the sentencce for Misconduct etc can be up to life imprisonment. it usually seems to be a term under 5 years.

On the sexual behaviour. If AMW had sex with VirginiaG in this country, it was entirely legal because she was over 16 ad while jeffrey Epstein had a taste for under age girls he seems to have been generally prepared to conside women of all ages - vide He had sex with Ghislaine Maxwell, and possibly, Sarah Ferguson.

The fact that any person went to parties in his houses and visted his island, it does not immediately follow that that person had sex with under age girls as girls and women of all ages were present at these events. The woman sent by JE to visit AMW in the Uk was a Russian wman in her 20s, who came over on a commercial flight and we have no reason to believe that she came over other than entirely voluntarily. AMW did nto get the nickname 'Randy Andy', because he was a model of good behaviour.

Many women voluntarily providing sexual services to high status men might well consider providing services to a member of the British Royal Family, as uite a coup.

The reason to believe that the women didn't act voluntarily was because Epstein was charged with sex trafficking minors, the charge sheet isn't, unfortunately, a work of fiction. You should read it.

Whitewavemark2

The more I read, the more I am coming to the opinion that because of the arcane way the law is structured it will be almost impossible to prove.

The only bit of optimism is that the government gets its act together and updates the law better to fit with modern society.

I am not sure I agree. There have been uite a number of trials for 'Misconduct in Public Office' from prison officers having it off with prisoners, to people charged with crimes similar to those alleged to have been committed by AMW and PM. There have been convictions enough to think that if they had committed crimes, they would be charged and if convicted, sent to prison. But while the sentencce for Misconduct etc can be up to life imprisonment. it usually seems to be a term under 5 years.

On the sexual behaviour. If AMW had sex with VirginiaG in this country, it was entirely legal because she was over 16 ad while jeffrey Epstein had a taste for under age girls he seems to have been generally prepared to conside women of all ages - vide He had sex with Ghislaine Maxwell, and possibly, Sarah Ferguson.

The fact that any person went to parties in his houses and visted his island, it does not immediately follow that that person had sex with under age girls as girls and women of all ages were present at these events. The woman sent by JE to visit AMW in the Uk was a Russian wman in her 20s, who came over on a commercial flight and we have no reason to believe that she came over other than entirely voluntarily. AMW did nto get the nickname 'Randy Andy', because he was a model of good behaviour.

Many women voluntarily providing sexual services to high status men might well consider providing services to a member of the British Royal Family, as uite a coup.

David49

In general across all crime guilty until proven innocent would be a big step forward.

But our jails aren't big enough.

Have you really thought David49 how many innocent lives would be ruined if you did that. Jobs, possibly homes and families lost, reputations destroyed. hw many might be driven to suicide?

Time and time again you hear of people arrested and bailed and the a few days/weeks later let free because it is clear they have absolutely nothing to do with the crime, which is sometimes murder aand other serious crimes.

It would also ihibit the poice in their enuiries because, although their duty may be clear they would be loathe to arrest someone possibly innocent when they might be sued for wrongful arrest and have to pay damages?

I am not greatly concerned about Andrew or Mandelson coming to trial; both have been publicly outed and humiliated. Both have been proved to have committed Misconduct in Public Office, but whether seriously enough to warrants a court case remains to be seen; both have shared sensitive confidential documents with Epstein.
The important thing is that neither hold any sort of Office again. I doubt if anyone would employ Andrew as he has nothing to offer, but Mandelson knows plenty, and is not scrupulous about how he uses it, and there are those who rely on him, still.

That is 'lived', not 'lives.' I haven't morphed into Gollum...

David49

Oreo

Usedtobeblonde

Tha can allis tell a Yorkshire man……but tha canna tell him much.

😂

You have to remember Yorkshire and the whole north of England has changed more than most, since those days, all the heavy industry, coal mines, shipbuilding, steelworks have all gone, replaced with ???.

When I lives in Sheffield ( a city I loved) it still had steelworks..

Replaced with the Meadow Hall shopping centre...😕

David49

In general across all crime guilty until proven innocent would be a big step forward.

But our jails aren't big enough.

No it wouldn't!

For goodness' sake, absolutely not David!

In general across all crime guilty until proven innocent would be a big step forward.

But our jails aren't big enough.

Whitewavemark2

The more I read, the more I am coming to the opinion that because of the arcane way the law is structured it will be almost impossible to prove.

The only bit of optimism is that the government gets its act together and updates the law better to fit with modern society.

Yes that’s already planned - I think it’s already been drafted. Don’t despair yet - I just want both of them to come to trial ( although I know that’s not a given) and then we’ll see

Those of us who live in the north, either side of the Pennines don’t need reminding how much it’s changed since the seventies. The heartland of the Industrial Revolution lost its industries and lacks investment.

Oreo

Usedtobeblonde

Tha can allis tell a Yorkshire man……but tha canna tell him much.

😂

You have to remember Yorkshire and the whole north of England has changed more than most, since those days, all the heavy industry, coal mines, shipbuilding, steelworks have all gone, replaced with ???.

Usedtobeblonde

Tha can allis tell a Yorkshire man……but tha canna tell him much.

😂

The more I read, the more I am coming to the opinion that because of the arcane way the law is structured it will be almost impossible to prove.

The only bit of optimism is that the government gets its act together and updates the law better to fit with modern society.

University

We once got told off in a pub in rural Devon for holding hands. “We’ll have none of that in here sonny.” That was in the late 60’s when we were at Exeter Iniversity.

David49

ferry23

And this was 1970??

I think you chose the wrong college David.

No, I was there to learn not for the social life, that year formed my entire business life, it doesn't seem to be a priority at all today for a great many.
Alcohol wasn't allowed on site either, but in those days Yorkshire was quite conservative, in many pubs women weren't allowed in the bar

I remember that one from that era....I was used to not thinking twice about going in a pub as from around 1970 - and then I landed up in Scotland a few times with the first boyfriend and we would walk into a pub together for a drink in the normal way and all the heads would turn - because it was only men in the pub! There may have been an element too, I guess, of it was all British people in the pub and the boyfriend I'd just walked in with was Arabic and so we stood out all round....

MaizieD

^I was also at university in a big gritty northern city, not down south in places like Yorkshire^

Aberdeen, MOnica? 🤔

I think you’ve just made an enemy of every true born Yorkshire person on the forum. You know there’s no grit like Yorkshire grit and nothing exists further north😂

You win! I was at Kings College, Durham. Now known as Newcastle University. It became a separate university while I was there. Newcastle, then was a big city based on mining, shipbuilding - and Newcastle Broon Ale. At various times I went down mines and round shipyards and steel plants

I love Yorkshire, and all that live there. My lovely DDiL, and therefore my DGC are Yorkshire born and bred and they all live in Yorkshire. DS went to York university and has now lived in Yorkshire longer than his natal region down south.

That's not conservative, that's misogynistic, sexist, bigoted and chauvinistic.

It was regarded as ‘conservative’ in those days before feminism really got going. I lived in Yorkshire all through the 70s. It was very ‘traditional’…