Huntley and comeuppance

LemonJam

Sadly data shows violence and attacks is increasing year on year in many jobs and professions e.g. Nurses, Care assistants. Paramedics, Police officers and Prison Officers etc. In my view it's a cop out to say "it goes with the job"- and they "shouldn't be afraid". no there are zero tolerance notices and signs in NHS remises, police custody suites prisons etc and rightly so- it should not be routinely tolerated. Particualalry as those jobs increasingly have unfilled vacancies year on year and have recruitment and retention problems.

Society will suffer the consequences if the year on year increase of such attacks continues.

Spot on - just because some people dismiss it as being 'part of the job' doesn't make it acceptable. Facing violence or abuse on a daily basis would take its toll on anyone. My DD is a nurse and last year was attacked by a patient wielding a knife. Fortunately she wasn't injured - not physically, anyway - but the incident has left her very shaken mentally. In fact, her own doctor thinks she may have PTSD.

Rosie51

Oreo If anyone is afraid of getting hurt now and then it would be better if they don’t become police officers or prison officers as it goes with the job.

Where has anyone said that police officers and prison officers are afraid? Their families and friends being distressed when they are hurt was what was raised, the wider impact of them being injured. I don't suppose any of them welcome being injured in the course of their job!

I find your total disregard for their safety really quite disturbing, just shrugging it off as "part of the job" What do you think would become of our country without police or prison officers? I'm pretty sure you'd not like it and would be demanding action.

I stand by my comments, as it is part of the job whether you like that phrase or not.All police officers and prison officers know it.It doesn’t mean that they or us like it, but it’s the truth.
You have skin in the game, I don’t.

Son25 may be used to other forums where the word crap is used ( yes, shock horror! It does happen.) This forum is more the unusual one where nothing more than an occasional damn or bloody pops up.
As for ‘give it up’ that’s used even on here! You’re coming on very much as thread police you know.
So, to sum up , the poster Son25 was unlikely to know that her phraseology wasn’t considered acceptable on this forum.

Oreo If anyone is afraid of getting hurt now and then it would be better if they don’t become police officers or prison officers as it goes with the job.

Where has anyone said that police officers and prison officers are afraid? Their families and friends being distressed when they are hurt was what was raised, the wider impact of them being injured. I don't suppose any of them welcome being injured in the course of their job!

I find your total disregard for their safety really quite disturbing, just shrugging it off as "part of the job" What do you think would become of our country without police or prison officers? I'm pretty sure you'd not like it and would be demanding action.

Sadly data shows violence and attacks is increasing year on year in many jobs and professions e.g. Nurses, Care assistants. Paramedics, Police officers and Prison Officers etc. In my view it's a cop out to say "it goes with the job"- and they "shouldn't be afraid". no there are zero tolerance notices and signs in NHS remises, police custody suites prisons etc and rightly so- it should not be routinely tolerated. Particualalry as those jobs increasingly have unfilled vacancies year on year and have recruitment and retention problems.

Society will suffer the consequences if the year on year increase of such attacks continues.

Oreo 17.36: 'Why would I think so?'

Why would I think you think what?

Son25 made the following comment " Monica your talking crap give it up..." Various posters responded in turn along the lines don't be so disrespectful, rude, belittling etc. You voiced in response to them - Son25 is entitled to her views. That wasn't the issue in question- posters agree with that- but important to be respectful when in disagreeing.

You further commented 13.33 "the word crap isn't considered rude by many people". I posted in response and stand by my post in its entirety.

You clarify in response 17.36 that you personally "wouldn’t say anyone was talking crap, never have on any forum but am aware that for many people it’s just another word for rubbish and is used on various forums other than this one.They don’t necessarily think that it’s unacceptable"

Good as on that we can both agree. It's how Son25 phrased her words that people reacted to ie "Monica your talking crap give it up..." not just the word' crap' in isolation. No poster should be told to "give up' providing their views just because another poster disagrees with them. You and she may not have a problem with the word crap in isolation ( but others might) it's the more the phrase Son25 used and how she spoke to MOnica that posters took issue with. There's no reason to risk disrespecting other posters if that's not the intention .

If anyone is afraid of getting hurt now and then it would be better if they don’t become police officers or prison officers as it goes with the job.
It doesn’t mean that their relatives won’t worry about them or the general public won’t feel sorry for them when it happens .
Become an estate agent or accountant if the thought of any violence bothers you in a job.
Mostly, both police officers in uniform or CID or prison officers know the risks but enjoy the job.
Our prisons are overcrowded tho and successive governments haven’t done enough on that score.
If violent inmates weren’t allowed workshops where weapons can be made, kettles of boiling water or hot oil for cooking for themselves ( who’s bright idea were those things?!) that would be a start.

Iam64 I remember my dad phoning to warn mum he had ‘a bit of a black eye’ , so we wouldn’t be shocked when he came home. He was a sgt in cid at the time. I can still see his face, one eye looked like raw liver.

I can so relate to this. We had two similar calls from our son when he was living with us. Once he moved out again we heard about the incidents, if at all, some time afterwards.

Can’t agree Dickens but that’s ok.
Prisoner violence is as old as time and the one thing I can agree on is not losing any sleep about Huntley, tho that does seem to contradict what you’re saying.
There aren’t many if any posters saying that they urge prisoners to be violent ( it’s a given that prisoners often are of course) but for myself I simply don’t care if they are violent to each other, at least the public are safe from them.

LemonJam

Oreo: "Prison officers who work in high security prisons aren’t vulnerable people they’re tough cookies and they do their jobs when it comes to separating violent inmates".

Prison officers face daily risks of assault whether tough cookies or not. Those who believe that Lynch mob behaviour in prisons is justified must accept that prisoner on prisoner violence increases the risk of assault and injury to POs when seeking to separate violent inmates.

If research and data of any interest:
university.open.ac.uk " Bloodbaths and prison staff: Considering the actual state of our prisons paper_

1) continual significant rises of assaults in prisons daily
2) Prison Office Association General Secretary - continued reduction in the number of prison officers has led to prisons being places of "carnage and bloodbaths- with a 'vicious circle of staff pressure and violence' and stated the POA "will not stand by and watch our members become punch bags on a daily basis".
3) Assaults on staff rose by 99% over a 4 year calendar period
4) prison population doubled and currently at all time highs, prions full and over capacity with more prison inmates than prison designed for- leading to early release schemes

No wonder it's hard to fill PO vacancies and retain them.

Violence has always been expected in prisons, or when police need to intervene as part of their jobs. Suggesting that they are tough cookies, trained to deal with violence indicates those with that point of view don’t care about, or understand its impact.
I remember my dad phoning to warn mum he had ‘a bit of a black eye’ , so we wouldn’t be shocked when he came home. He was a sgt in cid at the time. I can still see his face, one eye looked like raw liver.

LemonJam’s post sets out the reality. Our public services really suffered over 14 years . Little wonder all services, especially prisons find it hard to recruit and retain

Rosie51

Oreo

They’re trained to handle violence from prisoners, it’s part of the job.

So are the police yet my son was injured by a criminal.

Both jobs forbidden by law to strike and yet are poorly paid which is surely just a coincidence. You have to wonder why the prison service especially has a recruitment and retention problem..............

I did think you had a personal connection so will obviously worry about your son, it’s understandable.
Having said that, nobody is forced to do that job, a person must want to do it.
Violence in prison in high security prisons especially is part of that life.

Allira

Very well expressed, Dickens.

Agree well expressed post.

LemonJam

Oreo: "The word crap isn’t considered rude by many people, they use the word to equate to rubbish"

You may think that Oreo as does Son25 that telling someone they are "talking cr*p" is not rude and perfectly acceptable. You both appear to be in the minority on this post in holding such a a view. You run the risk of disrespecting others if you chose to do this. If you do not wish to upset and insult others there are other forms of words easily available to use instead. Unless of course you are intentionally seeking to be provocative and rude intentionally and take your chances on being called out when using such words.

If you are making comments on a public forum and want to respect others- you necessarily must accept that if you choose to respond to a poster by telling them they "are talking cr*p' many if not the majority, are likely to find that particular choice of words rude, dismissive, offensive, minimising etc. There is no need to tell anyone they are "speaking cr*" if you disagree with them as other forms of words, more respectful words are easily available.

Why would I think so? You’re assuming and you know what that means.
I wouldn’t say anyone was talking crap, never have on any forum but am aware that for many people it’s just another word for rubbish and is used on various forums other than this one.They don’t necessarily think that it’s unacceptable.

Very well expressed, Dickens.

Good post Dickens.

Dickens I too agree with everything you wrote.

👏👏👏 Well said Dickens I 100% agree with everything you've written. Would that I could have expressed myself so succinctly.

Mob-Rule appeals to those whose thinking is on a visceral level. In this case, Huntley 'got what he deserved, who cares who the attacker is'.

I will stick my neck out and suggest that not one poster on here will lose any sleep worrying about whether Huntley lives or dies. But we might be disturbed by the wider issue of gang/mob/individual violence between inmates as a form of 'justice'. How many 'moral' steps away from Huntley is a man who first rapes, then murders, a pregnant woman, which is what his attacker allegedly did?

I'm guessing that prison officers are trained for their job and extensively so when having to deal with violent prisoners and the ensuing mayhem their actions can cause. But they, along with police officers similarly trained, are as entitled as anyone else, to the protections that exist in Law & Order.

... and the problem with either tacitly approving 'rough justice' via a fellow inmate, or openly advocating for it, is that this kind of mob-rule does not contain itself within the prison environment. It signals to all or any individual with violent tendencies who might blindly adhere to a cause or is fixated with a belief - a monomaniac - that they can also feel justified in randomly assaulting or attacking another person if they feel like it. There are viscous and violent individuals outside of the prison environment.

Unfortunately, anyone who is even midly disturbed at the prospect of this anarchy of violence is viewed, by some, as not being sufficiently enraged by the awfulness of Huntley's unspeakable crimes.

Agree Roșie51- and all the more reason to respect the rule of law and not to condone prisoner on prisoner violence - as the POs have a responsibility to intervene and put themselves at risk as a result.

Oreo

They’re trained to handle violence from prisoners, it’s part of the job.

So are the police yet my son was injured by a criminal.

Both jobs forbidden by law to strike and yet are poorly paid which is surely just a coincidence. You have to wonder why the prison service especially has a recruitment and retention problem..............

Thank you LemonJam

Oreo: "The word crap isn’t considered rude by many people, they use the word to equate to rubbish"

You may think that Oreo as does Son25 that telling someone they are "talking cr*p" is not rude and perfectly acceptable. You both appear to be in the minority on this post in holding such a a view. You run the risk of disrespecting others if you chose to do this. If you do not wish to upset and insult others there are other forms of words easily available to use instead. Unless of course you are intentionally seeking to be provocative and rude intentionally and take your chances on being called out when using such words.

If you are making comments on a public forum and want to respect others- you necessarily must accept that if you choose to respond to a poster by telling them they "are talking cr*p' many if not the majority, are likely to find that particular choice of words rude, dismissive, offensive, minimising etc. There is no need to tell anyone they are "speaking cr*" if you disagree with them as other forms of words, more respectful words are easily available.

That last paragraph sums it up so well, M0nica. It's only natural to feel hatred and want vengeance against someone who has committed the most heinous of crimes - but if we are to call ourselves a civilised society, we have to recognise that there is that line which we cannot cross. To do so is to go down a very slippery slope indeed.

Oreo: "Prison officers who work in high security prisons aren’t vulnerable people they’re tough cookies and they do their jobs when it comes to separating violent inmates".

Prison officers face daily risks of assault whether tough cookies or not. Those who believe that Lynch mob behaviour in prisons is justified must accept that prisoner on prisoner violence increases the risk of assault and injury to POs when seeking to separate violent inmates.

If research and data of any interest:
university.open.ac.uk " Bloodbaths and prison staff: Considering the actual state of our prisons paper_

1) continual significant rises of assaults in prisons daily
2) Prison Office Association General Secretary - continued reduction in the number of prison officers has led to prisons being places of "carnage and bloodbaths- with a 'vicious circle of staff pressure and violence' and stated the POA "will not stand by and watch our members become punch bags on a daily basis".
3) Assaults on staff rose by 99% over a 4 year calendar period
4) prison population doubled and currently at all time highs, prions full and over capacity with more prison inmates than prison designed for- leading to early release schemes

No wonder it's hard to fill PO vacancies and retain them.

Tuliptree

This is a very sobering read - I read it again this morning and it must be one of the most heartbreaking indictments of our CJS ever. And yes he was attacked several times in prison. Poor Stefan Kiszko and his poor mother. At least Lesley’s family eventually got justice.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed?wprov=sfti1#

The Kiszko case is one I had in mind. I can also remember one or two where the family hate for the killer was such they could not stop hating the innocent man who had been wrongly convicted even after it was proved uite categorically.that hewas innocent.

We have a rule of law for the good of society as a whole. It does not mean we do not feel vindictive towards people who commit vile crimes but that we understand that the line between feeling vindictive and wanting to lynch someone is very thin indeed and the line gets crossed the moment someone calls out for revenge.