Matt Goodwin

Galaxy

I didn't say the government was ignoring it, I meant the tone of the thread which at times suggest it usnt an issue. I also said all the schools, I work pretty much in all the schools in a particular area.

I didn't think you meant the government. Where on the thread are there posts that suggest it is not an issue?

twaddle

Meandrogrog

sixandahalf

Meandrogrog

sixandahalf

I'm curious as to why you think OP that providing a link to something from the Daily Mail would mean you would be imprisoned?

How would that work please?

If you read my post you will see that I said if i put what I really thought I would be banned and possibly imprisoned.

Oh get a grip. Possibly imprisoned for what? For being a Daily Mail reader?

I am talking about Lucy Connolly being imprisoned for a comment on social media. Why would I mean beingimprisoned for being a Daily Mail reader. Do get a grip!

How were people supposed to know you had Lucy Connolly's comments on your mind. She was imprisoned for inciting violence.

Your comment is rude.

If my comment was rude, it follows that so was yours. LC is an example of the consequences of speaking ones mind on social media if it falls foul of Labour approval.

I don’t think it is ‘Labour approval’ that is the issue here Meandrogrog, it’s that a number of other Gransnetters on this thread don’t agree with what Lucy Connolly said. Other posters are not an amorphous mass of Labour voters who all think and say the same thing?

I think there are some siggestions that much of this discussion is either racist or not true, the comments on lived experience of Muslim women who all speak English, or the dismissal of free speech issues, or that I must work in one school where it is a particular issue. I think some of this demonstrates the gap between the middle class areas and the others, and it is often very difficult for one group to understand the concerns of the others.

I think what LC said was appalling, I to be honest, don't think she should have gone to prison for it.

Doodledog

twaddle

Oreo

A public school closing is probably due to RR and VAT imposed, thereby local schools having to cope with an influx.
I presume you mean private when you say public?
Teachers have so many immigrants children from various countries to teach, I don’t know how they cope with the lack of English.Along with 30+ children in classes.

When you write "teachers" what you really mean is "a few teachers" in "a few schools" (in a few pockets of the country). Nobody's denying that there is an issue in a few areas, which do need to be addressed, but it's as well not to exaggerate.

Absolutely. Neither of my children had even one non-English speaking child in their class (or schools AFAIK) from starting at 4 to leaving at 18. I can't imagine they are anywhere near alone in that.

That is not to say that for those living in areas with a significant ethnic mix are wrong to be concerned, though. It would trouble me if that had been the case for my children. But it is not realistic to pretend that it is the norm to have a 'lack of English' to deal with.

Again, though, it is a lack of teachers we need to address, not the fact that some children don't speak English. It is important that children living here do learn to speak English. In many cases they can teach it to their parents, too, which will help with integration.

Your children are now adults, possibly middle aged? I was thinking more of everyone’s grandchildren now at school.
My cousin teaches at a school in the Midlands where she spends all hours making lesson plans for lots of children who come from many different countries and cultures.She intends taking early retirement and is worn out.My own DGC in the South East attend a primary school that has very many children of various immigrants with quite a few who don’t speak English.
I think this scenario is more common than people think up and down the country.

Galaxy

I think what LC said was appalling, I to be honest, don't think she should have gone to prison for it.

I totally agree.It was a horrible thing to put on SM but certainly not right to receive a prison sentence.
Community work or a suspended sentence would have made sure that LC thought before she tweeted again in that kind of way.

My children are adults, yes (early 30s), but I am fairly sure the situation in the schools they attended hasn’t changed. As I said, though, I can understand the concerns of those in different circumstances. It is important that children get the full attention of their teacher, which can’t happen if s/he has to simultaneously teach English to non-native speakers.

Meandrogrog

twaddle

Meandrogrog

sixandahalf

Meandrogrog

sixandahalf

I'm curious as to why you think OP that providing a link to something from the Daily Mail would mean you would be imprisoned?

How would that work please?

If you read my post you will see that I said if i put what I really thought I would be banned and possibly imprisoned.

Oh get a grip. Possibly imprisoned for what? For being a Daily Mail reader?

I am talking about Lucy Connolly being imprisoned for a comment on social media. Why would I mean beingimprisoned for being a Daily Mail reader. Do get a grip!

How were people supposed to know you had Lucy Connolly's comments on your mind. She was imprisoned for inciting violence.

Your comment is rude.

If my comment was rude, it follows that so was yours. LC is an example of the consequences of speaking ones mind on social media if it falls foul of Labour approval.

Speaking one's mind and inciting violence are not the same thing. Lucy Connolly stepped over the line. Incidentally, I don't agree 100% with her punishment, but I do disagree with people who seem to think she did nothing wrong.

Former colleagues argue his work now:

- exaggerates demographic threats
- aligns with populist nationalist narratives
- frames immigration and cultural change in alarmist terms.

Some commentators argue that Goodwin’s framing of Britain’s decline—often tied to immigration and demographic change—leans toward ethno-nationalist assumptions. Such assumptions were part of the Nazi creed.

Critics infer the forthcoming book may push a narrative of national decline rooted in immigration and demographic change, which they see as politically charged.

Criticism of his earlier book Values, Voice and Virtue said that it makes large empirical claims but relies on “logical and empirical leaps” to advance a political agenda.

Separate from the book itself, some criticism has focused on Goodwin’s academic work and methodology. A report discussed by The Times claimed that a research project associated with him at the Legatum Institute was withdrawn after experts criticised its calculations and methodology.

That book hardly sounds like a laugh a minute, does it?!

Maybe, however, it's of its time because it captures the general mood of disillusionment and malaise. The author is actually basing his findings on current demographic feelings of insecurity and disenchantment. There's no denying the disquiet felt on these shores, and the lack of trust in those in power..

I think the example given on this thread, of how a number of schools are struggling with their teaching, is just one illustration of how people feel their concerns are being ignored.

From what I've seen and been told, non-English speaking children aren't the main reason schools are struggling.

twaddle

From what I've seen and been told, non-English speaking children aren't the main reason schools are struggling.

I don't think they are either, but there are some interesting comments here from those who understand the dilemma for real. Just like the author says, we shouldn't brush these concerns aside.

Teaching English to non native pupils is nothing like teaching curriculum English at KS1 or KS2. To teach English as a foreign language you need to use lots of visual aids and games to encourage speaking. Whereas English speaking pupils would be focusing more on reading and comprehension as well as some quite complicated grammar.

The two are not really compatible in the learning environment. So it would be wrong to devote lesson time to the minority group, ie the immigrant children, when the needs of the majority group are actually more important to achieve the required goals.

That's what is meant by the feeling that social justice is prioritised over academic merit, and fails to serve our pupils.

I didn't write that it's not a concern, but I refuse to accept that it's the main cause of the problems being experienced in today's schools.

Like just about every other issue, immigrants have become scapegoats.

Yes, twaddle I agree with your latest post.

twaddle

I didn't write that it's not a concern, but I refuse to accept that it's the main cause of the problems being experienced in today's schools.

Like just about every other issue, immigrants have become scapegoats.

Ok, if you want to argue the point, I didn't write that immigrant children are the MAIN cause either!

Blaming immigrants is not a new phenomenon, I don't know where it actually stemmed from. What I do know is that - and this is back to the author again - the more this continues without being addressed, the more it will become an irreversible problem in the future of education.

Casdon

I don’t think it is ‘Labour approval’ that is the issue here Meandrogrog, it’s that a number of other Gransnetters on this thread don’t agree with what Lucy Connolly said. Other posters are not an amorphous mass of Labour voters who all think and say the same thing?

I dont agree with what she said either, it was awful. I think my point is more, what is safe to say anymore and the feeling is that we are being closed down and just have to accept what is happening or suffer the consequences.

DaisyAnneReturns

Former colleagues argue his work now:

- exaggerates demographic threats
- aligns with populist nationalist narratives
- frames immigration and cultural change in alarmist terms.

Some commentators argue that Goodwin’s framing of Britain’s decline—often tied to immigration and demographic change—leans toward ethno-nationalist assumptions. Such assumptions were part of the Nazi creed.

Critics infer the forthcoming book may push a narrative of national decline rooted in immigration and demographic change, which they see as politically charged.

Criticism of his earlier book Values, Voice and Virtue said that it makes large empirical claims but relies on “logical and empirical leaps” to advance a political agenda.

Separate from the book itself, some criticism has focused on Goodwin’s academic work and methodology. A report discussed by The Times claimed that a research project associated with him at the Legatum Institute was withdrawn after experts criticised its calculations and methodology.

Who are these former colleagues? University lecturers presumably who may have very different views and seek to dismiss his concerns which many share. Is there national decline rooted in immigration and demographic change? Thoughts anyone?

It's actually simple. Don't publish anything that is hate speech, or that condones or invites harm.

Maremia

It's actually simple. Don't publish anything that is hate speech, or that condones or invites harm.

If only!! Both ways.

Yes, I agree, if only people would stop publishing hate speech.

Maremia

It's actually simple. Don't publish anything that is hate speech, or that condones or invites harm.

So what constitutes hate speech?

Meandrogrog

Casdon

I don’t think it is ‘Labour approval’ that is the issue here Meandrogrog, it’s that a number of other Gransnetters on this thread don’t agree with what Lucy Connolly said. Other posters are not an amorphous mass of Labour voters who all think and say the same thing?

I dont agree with what she said either, it was awful. I think my point is more, what is safe to say anymore and the feeling is that we are being closed down and just have to accept what is happening or suffer the consequences.

I don't understand your problem here. You claim that you don't agree with what she wrote, so it must be obvious to you that inciting violence isn't a "safe" thing to do in public. I, for one, am very glad that I live in a society which "closes down" on people who call for other people to be attacked. Yes, we do have to accept the consequences of the law if we want to live in a reasonably civilised society.

Meandrogrog

DaisyAnneReturns

Former colleagues argue his work now:

- exaggerates demographic threats
- aligns with populist nationalist narratives
- frames immigration and cultural change in alarmist terms.

Some commentators argue that Goodwin’s framing of Britain’s decline—often tied to immigration and demographic change—leans toward ethno-nationalist assumptions. Such assumptions were part of the Nazi creed.

Critics infer the forthcoming book may push a narrative of national decline rooted in immigration and demographic change, which they see as politically charged.

Criticism of his earlier book Values, Voice and Virtue said that it makes large empirical claims but relies on “logical and empirical leaps” to advance a political agenda.

Separate from the book itself, some criticism has focused on Goodwin’s academic work and methodology. A report discussed by The Times claimed that a research project associated with him at the Legatum Institute was withdrawn after experts criticised its calculations and methodology.

Who are these former colleagues? University lecturers presumably who may have very different views and seek to dismiss his concerns which many share. Is there national decline rooted in immigration and demographic change? Thoughts anyone?

National decline is more a result of the end of empire. The British Empire had its time in the sun - now it's somebody else's turn. That's how history works.

twaddle

Meandrogrog

Casdon

I don’t think it is ‘Labour approval’ that is the issue here Meandrogrog, it’s that a number of other Gransnetters on this thread don’t agree with what Lucy Connolly said. Other posters are not an amorphous mass of Labour voters who all think and say the same thing?

I dont agree with what she said either, it was awful. I think my point is more, what is safe to say anymore and the feeling is that we are being closed down and just have to accept what is happening or suffer the consequences.

I don't understand your problem here. You claim that you don't agree with what she wrote, so it must be obvious to you that inciting violence isn't a "safe" thing to do in public. I, for one, am very glad that I live in a society which "closes down" on people who call for other people to be attacked. Yes, we do have to accept the consequences of the law if we want to live in a reasonably civilised society.

It is not calling for other people to be attacked that I am meaning, it is feeling closed down on free speech.