Matt Goodwin

Galaxy

I don't think anything should go, but I certainly wouldn't trust those who tend to make decisions around speech, I have watched the last decade and the damage it has caused to women, I wouldn't really trust them to organise the proverbial in a brewery let alone these type of nuanced decisions. I think people tend to defend the speech they agree with, so many would think LC should be jailed, and not Ricky Jones, and vice versa. They would think those who put 'incorrect information' about the Southport attacks should be prosecuted but not hope not hate. It depends on the prevailing view in those who hold 'power'.

I don't disagree - as I say, nobody is neutral.

So what would you do about it?

Good post LemonJam 👏👏

sixandahalf

The reasons there is a large non white population in Leicester are no doubt complex. But the gist is that the first generation were invited here after the UK colonised their countries.

No. In the case of West Indians it was because they were invited here to work as nurses, doctors, bus drivers etc. we needed them.

In the case of the Ugandan Asians it was because they were kicked out by Idi Amin and came here as the majority of them held British passports. Leicester was a hive of industry then so there were jobs galore.

I worked with both these communities in the 70s and am still in touch with a few people. It might surprise you to know that most of them are very much against uncontrolled immigration. They think it unfair because they came here legally and jumped through all the hoops they had to.

Reading some of the comments on here I can easily see why Reform will do well in the next election, as posters dismiss very real scenarios within our country.No doubt the problems don’t affect them which is why.

I would completely support the scrapping of the non hate crime nonsense, and I would support a review of hate speech laws I think. As a society it would be great if we could have a conversation about the importance of supporting speech that we hate.

Sorr, that was in answer to doodledogs question..

What is non hate crime nonsense?

I would like to see a review of hate speech laws, too. I do think it's important that people understand what is legal and what is not, and there should be nothing open to interpretation.

Oreo, which very real scenarios have been dismissed, and by whom?

I can equally see reading comments on here why Reform are unlikely to win the next General election, just as they didn't the last General election.

LemonJam

Each to their won but I don't see it being a best seller and does not appeal to me judging from the book's intro as Twaddle helpfully set out for us:

"It is a story of how a people are losing their own country. Mass uncontrolled immigration, porous borders, 'two-tier multiculturalism', and a draconian regime of censorship are all contributing to not just the transformation of a country and a people but their very replacement".

What twaddle. England/UK is not 'being lost" - you cant just "loose a country" and its not something I observe or experience. Goodwin can of course only speak from his own perspective and that of his party Reform and its not one I share. Some may share his views but the majority evidently do not as Reform has so few MPs. Goodwin's views and values were also tested and failed very recently, in the Gorton and Denton by election, shown to be in the minority and he was outvoted fairly emphatically by the winning Green candidate on her platform of inclusivity. The forward of his book is not a claim to inclusivity in any shape or form.- so off putting for me personally. Factually the UK does not have "uncontrolled immigration'. Immigration data fell significantly over the past year and is heading towards net zero. Goodwin refers to "two tier multiculturalism" but I'm sure he is not referring to structural inequalities, disparities in wealth, housing or senior leadership that persists for minority groups as that view does not align with Reform's pledges to eliminate DEI initiatives or Gorton's recent efforts to win voters in Gorton and Denton. He thus must mean something entirely different. The UK does not have a 'draconian censorship regime' so he is factually incorrect and being knowingly provocative which puts me off reading his book. The UK clearly has laws to protect free speech.

It continues:

"Drawing on a huge amount of data, rigorous analysis, and demographic forecasts, Suicide of a Nation pulls back the curtain to show readers how their population, how their country, is now being completely transformed -and in ways they never voted for, nor ever asked for".

Last time I looked the UK has democratic elections. We had 13 years of Conservative rule and now are part way through a Labour government. Each party had its own manifesto so Voters more or less knew what they were voting for, notwithstanding not all promises would be met, economic realties lead to U turns etc. Reform would face the same global realities and economic constraints. A book seemingly whipping up populist emotion has no appeal to me. Reform managed just a handful of MPs in the last General Election so this book in reality may appeal more to those voters. Voters do understand that Farage rates Trump and mirrors much of Trump's ideology therefore we have some vague idea of what his government and policies might look like. So far knowing what we do, Reform has never won a General Election and long might that be the case.

It continues:

"Through an unflinching look at reality, a reality the politicians would rather you ignore, Suicide of a Nation asks and then answers a series of uncomfortable but urgent questions".

We are all able on a daily basis to observe and experience the reality of living under current government and observing the actions and statements of all parties and we ask uncomfortable and urgent questions on Gransnet posts- we don't need to read Matt Goodwin's book to have an unflinching ring side seat on reality. Politicians, of all parties, may rather we ignore things but they are astute enough not to underestimate the voting population and know very well they depend on us for their votes and that they are accountable.

It goes on:

"What is happening to Britain, and why? On current demographic trends, where will the country be at the end of the century, only 74 years from now? Why are millions of people, including their wishes, concerns, and worries, being ignored? Why has the country's political and cultural elite become so utterly disconnected from the rest of the country? What might happen if none of this is addressed? And what must change before it is too late?"

We all get our democratic vote so not ignored as such. If we feel a party is ignoring the needs of the voters they get voted out at the next election. We can all see what is happening to the UK, post Brexit decline in growth, loss of free market, isolation and loss of decision making power in EU decisions, anti-immigrant rhetoric, adverse economic conditions in a chaotic world (Trump's tariffs, increasing oil prices etc). We observe sequential leaders and sequential governments grappling with these conditions and restraints. Arguably Farage was the key architect that lead to Brexit on his rallying call for 'sovereignty'. He took many for fools as the UK had sovereignty even before Brexit.

A book by someone who can't win an election as an MP that does not believe in inclusivity and building communities is not for me....

Thank you for your detailed answer. Suffice to say I totally disagree with your point of view but it is yours to hold and I do respect that. I am a Reform voter, a Farage supporter and also a Brexit supporter so we are polar opposites politically!

You have given good and detailed points discussing various aspects of his arguments, none of which I agree with but respect your right to hold them.

Tbh I completely agree with what he has written, I have strong feelings towards our commonwealth countries and against the EU.

Other posters have given details of what would constitute a hate crime speech, but why has this become such a thing?

Primrose has reported feeling uncomfortable in Leicester but why shoukd she feel like that in her own country? Also in the Daily Mail on saturday a woman reported her experiences living in close proximity to a migrant hostel but no one has commented on how they feel about what she is reporting on that. Why not?

Non hate crime incidents are when something hasn't broken hate speech laws but the speech is seen by someone as offensive and motivated by hate, the police pop around and have a little chat and may record it. Obviously this is my interpretation of it but to be honest getting anyone to explain it is a tricky task. The Lords have just voted to scrap non hate crime incidents. Even explaining that has made me laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.

The Daily Mail is behind a pay wall- so unable to comment on DM articles as Im not a subscriber- sorry.

As far as I can tell so far the DM is the only newspaper to publish an extract from the book as it's not actually published until tomorrow. More newspapers may comment maybe not....

Thanks LemonJam, now I don't need to buy it.

OP asks … why has [hate speech] become such a thing?

Legally it hasn’t become a thing. The law against it has been in place for 90 years, now enshrined in the Public Order Act 1986 which replaced the Public Order Act 1936. Section 5 of the latter prohibited using "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" likely to cause a breach of the peace. It was designed to curb political extremism e.g. the British Union of Fascists and violence.

Now we are seeing a significant rise in this behaviour.

What has become a thing is the prevalence of social media and the relative easy with which hate messages are spread.

As Lucy Connolly has been mentioned in the context of this discussion, I read the Court of Appeal Judgement.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Lucy-Connolly-v-The-King.pdf

She was charged and prosecuted under Section 10 of the Public Order Act 1986 which makes it very clear that:

1) A person who publishes or distributes written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, OR

(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

She plead guilty, appealed and lost. The maximum penalty for such an offence is 7 years’ imprisonment. She was sentenced to 31 months and served 300 days - less than a third of her sentence.

The judge said :

…she did not post a message of support and sympathy to the victims of the ^Southport attack and the bereaved. Nor, we would add, did she post a message of hostility confined to the perpetrator of the Southport attack. She chose instead to incite serious violence against a large numbers of persons. The applicant’s personal history cannot significantly reduce her culpability for that serious offence.

Her message inciting violence was viewed 310,000 times and reposted 940 times. That’s what has changed.

I would add that she has been back on X since December tweeting some nasty stuff so either her time in jail did no good at all or being taken up as a cause célèbre by Reform has emboldened her.

Wyllow3

Top post Doodledog. I’m glad those are being addressed for the people concerned Galaxy, but it doesn’t change the general points.

My DGC by chance are in an area and school where there are not non English speakers: OTOH my sister in London, Hackney, was taking small groups in a primary school 20 years ago, I think she counted 15 languages. Children pick language up very quickly on the whole, it’s adults who need more help.

The primary school our children attended (three of them) was very multicultural, and also had 26+ languages.

This was handled extremely well by our wonderful head, whom I got to know very well as I was deputy chair on the school governing body for many years.

Very small groups of children were placed together and had full immersion in English for a month. If you’ve not experienced young children in a classroom environment then it’s sometimes difficult to imagine how quickly children learn languages.

In addition the local community centre (it was next door to the school), arranged for English classes to be run for parents l, run and funded by various charities and volunteer.

In assemblies children from other countries were invited to give small talks on their own countries, some elucidated on why they’d come to this country, from economic reasons, some were travellers, some were refugees.

Every child, irrespective of colour, race, faith or nationality had an equal chance for a good solid education.

The school celebrated all they could, including always having a Christian Easter and Christmas celebration. It brought a tear to my eye seeing a black Joseph, Muslim angels, and Chinese kings. My daughter was Mary two years running!

Sometimes perceived barriers can be turned into incredibly positive situations.

LemonJam

I can equally see reading comments on here why Reform are unlikely to win the next General election, just as they didn't the last General election.

👏👏👏👏👏

My daughter teaches in a deprived area of Essex, in a primary school, she’s been there around 5 years and has taught in both infants and juniors.

In her entire time at her school she’s only had two pupils whose understanding of English was too poor for them to understand what they were being taught. Not 2 a year, 2 in 5 years, I understand that there will be a very few areas where non-English pupils outnumber English pupils, this is not the norm.

LemonJam

The Daily Mail is behind a pay wall- so unable to comment on DM articles as Im not a subscriber- sorry.

As far as I can tell so far the DM is the only newspaper to publish an extract from the book as it's not actually published until tomorrow. More newspapers may comment maybe not....

I hadnt realised as I access the newspaper through the library app. Maybe some other newspapers will report on it but I am also not sure if they will.

Chocolatelovinggran

Housing is a contentious subject in my seaside home town.
One of the problems is the huge increase in Airbnbs. These are a better source of revenue for landlords, with tax advantages.
This takes housing stock from local people who wish to rent, or buy . Immigration is not the driver here.
There is also the issue of new builds which are bought by London boroughs to accommodate people on their housing list, a very hot topic locally, but, again, not immigration.
The secondary and primary schools attended by my GC have all expanded their class size because...a public school nearby is closing, nothing to do with immigration, either.
Sometimes we must look critically at assumptions.

,

👏👏👏👏👏👏

I have read the DM article. You can use the Remove Paywall app to see it.

There is no doubt that Matt Goodwin is articulate but he also twists the words of others to make his own case against immigration.

He uses the term suicidal empathy citing Arnold J. Toynbee's quote, "Civilisations die from suicide, not by murder,”

Key aspects of Toynbee’s argument were:

Self-Destruction: Civilisations fall when they stop solving their own problems and abandon the principles that created their success.

Internal Causes: Decline is rarely caused by external enemies, but by internal decay such as corruption, militarism, and loss of purpose.

I wonder if OP would care to say something about:

• what they consider to be some of the principles that created Britain’s success which have been abandoned and/

• If Toynbee said that decline is rarely caused by external enemies then why is Goodwin citing Toynbee to speak of migrants in those terms?

Toynbee published works on the German terror in Belgium, France and Poland during WW1, describing the kinds of atrocities that Reform are now suggesting in their desire to copy Trump’s brutal ICE force.

I wonder too what OP thinks about the corruption (and hypocrisy) in the very party that Goodwin was recently seeking election to represent.

Tice is in the news again for large-scale tax avoidance. He called Angela Rayner “the biggest hypocrite in the land.” because she acted on poor advice and underpaid £40,000 in stamp duty (which had she bought the apartment after her disabled son turned 18 this year, would not have been an issue). She was amiss in not seeking professional tax advice. Had she done so they would surewy have adviced her to delay buying a property until after that date just as people defer or accelerate transactions to take advantage of SDLT holidays.

To my knowledge, Tice said nothing about Farage buying a house in his girlfriend’s name to evade the same tax.

Tice’s property company used offshore structures to avoid nearly £600,000 in corporation tax (with wider avoidance estimates above £1m). It is extremely unlikely he will pay the tax he avoided. Reform’s election “contract” said it would end the offshore tax rip off. Reform is funded predominantly by foreign and UK nationals who avoid UK tax.

Who are the hypocrites here? Funny how many self-proclaimed “British patriots” spend huge amounts of time and effort setting up schemes to avoid paying UK tax.

Farage has gone on record saying that he regrets that his party took control of Worcestershire County Council because its problems are too hard for them to solve.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93wv0ylq9yo

They were elected on a promise to cut taxes and have instead increased them by almost 9%, one of the largest increases in its history.

If Reform cannot balance the books of a local county council, what are the chances it could manage the national economy?

Instead it is scapegoating migrants which we should all know is an early sign of the fascism that Goodwin would have us all all live under, not least women with his archaic views about women as baby factories and penalising women who do not have children.

And now we have Reform’s Peter York, vice chairman of West Northamptonshire Council, saying "some women should have never left the kitchen”. He claims his words were taken out of context but in what context would a man say that?

Reform are not a progressive party but a bunch of people who would have us believe there was some halcyon era of Britishness which never existed.

Btw, teaching if completed as an undergraduate is 3 years, or can be done as a post grad in 1 year.

Even though they join schools as NQT (newly qualified teachers) they have classes and teach immediately so I’m not sure why anyone would think it take 5 or 6 years to train teachers.

That is an excellent post, Graphite, thank you, I would be very interested in a reasoned reply to all the points that you make.

Maremia

Thanks Jane43.
I don't understand the last one.

I’m not a legal expert, this is what a search told me:

AI Overview
Preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence means legally or ethically restricting the unauthorized sharing, publication, or misuse of private, non-public information shared under an expectation of secrecy. It protects secrets (trade secrets, personal data) from being disclosed without consent, often enforced via contracts, common law, or injunctions.

Goodwin's previous books had much similar censure and criticism as Graphite highlights 18.36, Wikipedia has a brief summary... not exactly inspiring.

The Reform leaders' overt propensity for making huge sums of money whilst in public office and actively employing tax avoidance vehicles to avoid paying large sums of tax to the UK government it seeks to rule one day - is very off putting to me as a voter. It leads to believe Reform leaders have one rule for themselves and another for the plebs. Clearly Frage, Tice and co not value Public Office Nolan Principles and are likely to breach them if elected to government. Yet Reform and Goodwin in his book rail against the political "elite". We are not fools.

Great post Graphite, however, one thing I note about many Reform supporters is that they are so sure that they are right, they won’t look at the “how, where, when and why” of issues.

I completely understand why villages and small towns sometimes feel threatened by hotels only housing male asylum seekers, I’ve sometimes felt a little intimidated by large groups of teenage boys on the streets, I understand sometimes these fears are unfounded, but given that male violence of all types seems to be growing, it’s an understandable feeling. It’s a very small percentage of overall asylum seekers who’ve been violent towards British citizens.

I also don’t think it’s a great idea to house groups of males together, some of whom will have been exposed to vile and violent events on their way to this country.

Btw, I don’t know what the answers are, but I genuinely don’t think blaming immigrants for all the failings of our own country is in any way fair, just or accurate.

As always, I’d really like to remind those of you who truly appear to despise immigrants, we are only British citizens by an accident of birth and most of us are tremendously lucky never to have experienced our country being invaded, attacked, or bombed by another nation, we are sadly experienced too many terror attacks, but we are not blighted by civil war, we have not experienced famine, police and armed forces (as a general rule) do not break down our doors and drag us off to prisons with no trials, we can normally protest, wave banners, or t-shirts, most of us have the right to vote, work, open bank accounts.

We “enjoy” many things other nations don’t, perhaps sometimes we should count our blessings instead of blaming everyone other than ourselves.

Primrose

At no point have I EVER read any Gransnet post supporting “uncontrolled immigration” There is a chasm between treating those resident in our country or those seeking to reside here (for any reason) justly and fairly, and flinging open our borders and shouting “All come here now”.

IMO, our entire immigration system requires over hauling, making it more effective and effective, ensuring that those living here still have valid visas, giving Aslyum Seekers a safe legal route in and processing their claims far more quickly and efficiently.

So many things around immigration are ineffective and unjust, I think most of us would welcome reviews and reforms (small r, please note!)