Junior Doctors strike

Aveline

Can I just point out to paddyann54 that the Scottish government have unfortunately not worked out how they can pay the rises that they've promised the doctors. In the doomsday scenario that SNP get re elected this will be a massive headache for them or, more likely, the beleaguered tax payers who already pay more than they do in England.

Aveline that’s how many businesses work,in fact the most successful man we know used to tell us say yes ,keep things going and find a way to do what they ask…he sold his business in 1984 for £1,4 BILLION .
Not everything needs to be e planned to the nth degree before negotiations are completed .
The fact that previous rises have been honoured is a clue to how this will go.
As to not being “allowed” an opinion on Westminster or strikes…well there is a solution…if we are such a burden to them why do they insist on hanging on to us!
While WM uses its veto on Scottish policies and we are subject to English votes on English laws courtesy of Cameron .We are entitled to voice our opinions where and when we want .
If that offends you feel free to vote for English independence

I’m glad a few people are defending resident doctors. I don’t have the bandwidth to write at length but the situation isn’t as it appears in the press. The much-mooted training positions aren’t new jobs, they’re other jobs that have been relabelled and are short term contracts. Junior drs also have a lot of expenses as they often have to move two or three times a year and are simply told where their next job is, there is no choice. No matter if you are sent to an area of high rents or your partner also has a job. You may have children settled in childcare or school but they have to go too. This is an increasingly common scenario because the government has encouraged postgraduate trainees who may have an established family life.

As for other professions who are paid differently - they are perfectly entitled to fight for better pay and conditions, too.

To be fair, SueDonim, I wouldn't have realised how difficult it was until relatively recently when my son became involved with a trainee Dr. It was only when she came to the end of her time at University, we realised how difficult it was for her and others. Many in her class didn't get an F1 place and now the F2's who finished at her Hospital have no jobs to go to. She was down to do a research placement but after she started, they withdrew funding. The NHS need research done to further medical knowledge so it is definitely a backward step.

Paddyann 'They' are not 'hanging on' to Scotland. The Scottish people voted to stay in the UK. 'They' are honouring what the population actually voted for.

So Sorry Primrose, I lost my lovely brother to this cancer last year, I would be furious if someone I loved was caught up in the doctor's strike-they are being greedy and ridiculous, and it is hurting the people that it shouldn't-why should sick patients suffer because of their demands-I feel like slapping the mob outside my local hospital; they presumably didn't become doctors for the money, but to help people? Where has that philanthropy gone??

They were philanthropic during Covid...it didn't get them very far, Beans12.

The striking doctors don’t seem to have had much effect so far and aren’t much in the news either.

Met a cousin for lunch yesterday, whose daughter is at present a resident doctor training in oncology - later expects to specialise.

She was a young trainee doctor at the time of covid and spent much of her first year watching people die and working until exhausted. She later spent a couple of years in Australia because finding work in U.K. was not easy, before returning to the U.K. in order to specialise.

She has over £100000 loan. Every exam she takes of which there are many costs over £1000. She works long hours and there is time given - often unpaid. She doesn’t complain, but does consider that she is not paid fairly for her skills and dedication. Of course eventually she will benefit from her studying and specialism.

I think it helps to see the other side.

Whitewavemark2

Met a cousin for lunch yesterday, whose daughter is at present a resident doctor training in oncology - later expects to specialise.

She was a young trainee doctor at the time of covid and spent much of her first year watching people die and working until exhausted. She later spent a couple of years in Australia because finding work in U.K. was not easy, before returning to the U.K. in order to specialise.

She has over £100000 loan. Every exam she takes of which there are many costs over £1000. She works long hours and there is time given - often unpaid. She doesn’t complain, but does consider that she is not paid fairly for her skills and dedication. Of course eventually she will benefit from her studying and specialism.

I think it helps to see the other side.

Thanks for an interesting take on the issue WWM2.

Why, when there appears to be a dearth of doctors in various sections/departments of the NHS - is it so difficult for them to find work?

Is it that these positions are just not being opened-up - say a department might, for example, need 2 JDs - but due to policy or budget constraints, are only allowed one doctor? Kind of thing?

Interesting report this morning that the strike actually improved patient care in A&E departments because experienced consultants were drafted to the front line and were able to take definitive decisions. They ordered fewer tests than the "risk averse" (understandably) more junior doctors. They knew what was serious and what was not and got people through quickly without having to go through a chain of consulting more senior staff thus increasing wait times.
It might also have related to newer patients presenting of course.
Downsides of course are high cost and loss of the necessary opportunities for new doctors to learn.

Newer should read fewer.

I don’t know. But my guess would be budgetary.

Luckygirl those consultants are falling behind on the cases that are their normal workload, so in the end, there’ll be a massive traffic jam of patients if there are few resident doctors. It’s not a sustainable system.

Dickens, exactly that. Positions are left unfilled until the next budgetary year or they’re filled with temporary contact doctors. Some positions where the holder has gone on maternity leave are left unfilled until they return. Some positions they decide they can do without or they just refer patients on to another area. In Scotland there is currently just one consultant in the entire country for a particular children’s speciality. Despite the assertions from some, doctors don’t want to move to Scotland because they know while pay might be higher, they’ll also pay taxes far in excess of south of the border. There’s a huge recruitment issue in Scotland.

My dd confessed to me last night that she frequently faints when she is working in hospitals due to lack of time to eat, drink or go to the loo. I was horrified at that. She never faints outside work.

Luckygirl those consultants are falling behind on the cases that are their normal workload, so in the end, there’ll be a massive traffic jam of patients if there are few resident doctors. It’s not a sustainable system. - sure, I realise that.

But the idea that there might be a way of both making sure that junior doctors get the experience they need whilst also having sufficient expertise on the ground to speed decision making (and reduce unnecessary tests) might be worth exploring.

It’s harder to support this strike when it means your treatment has been delayed again.
Waiting at the bus stop, the drop in public sympathy near us was evident when most cars drove silently past the “hoot if you support us” placards outside our local hospital. DGS who has digs close by mentioned how much quieter it was this time too.
He’s not training to be a doctor, but if he gets a job as a teacher it will take him till he’s 40 to pay off his student loans.

Your poor daughter SueDonim, she will become ill herself if she carries on working like that without breaks. Even if she just had a pre mixed protein shake carton when she can grab two minutes it would help her avoid fainting attacks.

That can only work if there are more consultants, Luckygirl and that’s not likely to happen. Dd was telling me about the NQ doctors. When she qualified in 2020 she was assigned to departments and allocated to different experienced medics to learn on the job. It was generally about five trainees per dept. Very often now, because there are many more trainees coming through, they have to find their own mentors and there just aren’t enough places. Departments are now trying to manage ten or twelve trainees at a time which means they’re not getting enough experience. Also, whilst many patients are happy to accommodate trainees, no one wants half a dozen young men/women peering at them when they feel vulnerable.

She uses exercises that the military use to prevent them from fainting on parade and carries various snacks in her pocket, Casdon. She’s got it finally tuned - if she’s just seeing bright lights, she knows she’s X amount of time to remedy the situation, if she’s seeing stars, she’s got less time, blackness means rapid action.

She should bring bottles of Huel. You can get them online or from Boots. It's good stuff and is meant for people like her that are too busy to eat.

That’s applying a sticking plaster, though. She shouldn’t have to rely on UPF’s. She’d just like 30mins in which to eat the lunch she prepares for herself.

She has my sympathy, it’s not right at all to be put in that position.

I know it shouldn't happen but it does. It's just a suggestion.
The NHS needs a comprehensive reorganise and for it to be funded and managed out with the usual three to five years of a government. The BMA has a role to play too though.

Aside from all the upset and disappointment these strikes cause to very ill patients and their families and extra work for other NHS staff, these resident doctors strikes have cost the NHS £3billion in recent years.

I find it far more obscene when a foreign footballer signs for a top English club for 500k a week and then demands 600 k the following season, which the club will pay. This is someone who has no talent beyond kicking a ball and deciding his pay each season. Yet we pay people with rral skills like doctors and nurses a fraction of this, in particular nurses.

Cumbrianmale56

I find it far more obscene when a foreign footballer signs for a top English club for 500k a week and then demands 600 k the following season, which the club will pay. This is someone who has no talent beyond kicking a ball and deciding his pay each season. Yet we pay people with rral skills like doctors and nurses a fraction of this, in particular nurses.

This thread is about junior/resident doctors striking though.