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Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

(168 Posts)
LemonJam Sun 10-May-26 16:03:21

Equal Right legislation protects transgender people from discrimination of transgender people.

How much do your beliefs dominate your political voting patterns. How much do your beliefs influence affiliation to a particular political party? Is it permissible to misgender or deadname transgender women or men? How can we as individuals treat transgender people with respect whilst accepting their male or female sex at birth?

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 09:58:33

Whitewavemark2

Hmm.

Don’t think twice about my being offended, it takes more than a bit of patronising to offend me.

I can see that this debate is going to be pretty prolonged, but suffice it to say, that we must agree to disagree on much of this subject ( not entirely, but hopefully disagree agreeably as they say), I am and have been a feminist for my entire life, but sub-sets like TERF simply do not float my boat and I frankly think them misguided and often plain wrong.
I know of one GN poster - whose child committed suicide over gender dysmorphia - so the subject always needs to be treated with a degree of empathy and intelligence.

But there you are, TERF will come and go just as so many different sub-sets have done over the millennia. That is what history teaches you.

The. voice of reason- empathy and emotional intelligence. Thank you WWM2

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 09:59:25

Cossy

People should be able to live their lives in peace, it doesn’t matter one fig to me if they are gay, straight, trans gender or choose to live their (adult) life as something else entirely.

So long as they are good, honest, kind and law abiding people, I couldn’t care less.

I respect other people’s rights to hold their own views and to express them, but I don’t condone discrimination of any types and so long as trans gender “rights” don’t overrule or overthrow biological female rights and safety, I’m OK with this too.

Biological sex and gender are two entirely different things.

Nobody can change the biological sex they were born in. They can, and should, be able to “adopt” a different gender and happily live their lives this way.

I agree with you in entirety Cossy.

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:18:24

Jennifer Melle's case highlights the extreme end of the spectrum, the type of person who will seek recourse to identifying as a woman. A paedophile prisoner who was admitted to hospital for a urinary infection, anatomically specific to his sex. For not following due protocol in her addressing him as Mr, for her crime, whilst she was racially abused by a sexual deviant, she's suspended. What that case, along with Isla Bryson's and others, these are people who are cynically manipulating the law for their own ends. I don't believe for one moment a man who has raped a female is in the wrong body, I think the fact that he has committed that act would tell him exactly what body he's inhabiting.

👏 Spot on Terribull.

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:38:48

butterandjam

Ilovecheese

There are a few different versions of what happened with the nurse and the prisoner. I don't suppose anyone really knows the sequence of events by now.

The patient was brought to the hospital in restraints for a urinary infection requiring a catheter.Melle referred to the patient as "he" and "Mr." when discussing the medical procedure with a doctor.

Because the catheter was in the male's penis.

The patient was a convicted paedophile with a beard and male genitals. The patient was admitted from a high-security male prison and was listed as male in medical records. He is a racist too and he attempted to attack Jennifer Melle physically.
Another medical professional also referred to the patient as male but was not investigated.

Why anyone should expect to be concerned about his sensitivities is puzzling as he has patently shown none for others, including children. Politeness, yes, whoever the patient, but he only claimed to be a young girl on social media so that he could lure and abuse young boys.

When I have visited hospitals there are notices in every department stating that abuse of staff will not be tolerated.

twaddle Mon 11-May-26 10:38:50

Melle was actually suspended for going to the media and potentially breaking patient confidentiality.

Cardamom Mon 11-May-26 10:39:33

Interesting that my account, my feelings are so easily dismissed . “How did you know “. I’ve lived 77 years and learned a thing or two.

You're being gaslit Iam64; it happens to women with critical thinking skills.

twaddle Mon 11-May-26 10:40:24

I guess that in theory the hospital should have refused to treat the patient after the nurse was racially abused. How does that compare with the way other patients are treated if they abuse staff?

ViceVersa Mon 11-May-26 10:41:55

Cossy

People should be able to live their lives in peace, it doesn’t matter one fig to me if they are gay, straight, trans gender or choose to live their (adult) life as something else entirely.

So long as they are good, honest, kind and law abiding people, I couldn’t care less.

I respect other people’s rights to hold their own views and to express them, but I don’t condone discrimination of any types and so long as trans gender “rights” don’t overrule or overthrow biological female rights and safety, I’m OK with this too.

Biological sex and gender are two entirely different things.

Nobody can change the biological sex they were born in. They can, and should, be able to “adopt” a different gender and happily live their lives this way.

I could not have put it better myself. Thank you Cossy.

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 10:42:42

"Law abiding" They won't be if trans women are still accessing women only spaces. As for kind or honest, I don't see that in those trying to crash gatherings for women only trauma, such as one for women who have suffered genital mutilation, mentioned up thread or indeed any other horrors a woman only meeting might be about, pertinent only to those who have had personal experience. Or expecting lesbians to not exclude a male person who identifies as a woman as a prospective partner. There is no empathy there to a fellow human being, it's all about a perceived entitlement to inclusivity at any cost. Menacing and vengeful spring to mind.

I do think conflating trans men with the excesses of those on the aggressive side of the trans women spectrum, like the non confrontational trans woman, they aren't the problem. This argument will rumble on because one side will not admit some of the problems that have presented once "the trans" issue entered the public domain. We all pretty much acknowledge that within their numbers many are peaceful, good people, but to want to feel safe and respected as a woman is not unreasonable.

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 10:47:01

Maybe Jennifer Mellee's going to the press was questionable, but certainly not as questionable as prioritsing the rights of a scumbag over an experienced and capable nurse

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:47:02

ViceVersa

Cossy

People should be able to live their lives in peace, it doesn’t matter one fig to me if they are gay, straight, trans gender or choose to live their (adult) life as something else entirely.

So long as they are good, honest, kind and law abiding people, I couldn’t care less.

I respect other people’s rights to hold their own views and to express them, but I don’t condone discrimination of any types and so long as trans gender “rights” don’t overrule or overthrow biological female rights and safety, I’m OK with this too.

Biological sex and gender are two entirely different things.

Nobody can change the biological sex they were born in. They can, and should, be able to “adopt” a different gender and happily live their lives this way.

I could not have put it better myself. Thank you Cossy.

This patient was not living this life in peace though, was he!

He was a convicted sex offender, paedophile, in a high security men's prison, listed as male on medical records. He attempted to attack the nurse treating him and racially abused her.

He was not happily and peacefully living life having adopted a different gender, was he.

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:51:36

TerriBull

Maybe Jennifer Mellee's going to the press was questionable, but certainly not as questionable as prioritsing the rights of a scumbag over an experienced and capable nurse

Well, she had bee given a final warning and first went for advice to a Christians legal group. This may be what they advised her to do.

Most right-minded people, even her MP, support her.

This man was not transgender, he was using this as an excuse to abuse children. He is in a male prison.
People like him bring disrepute on all transgender people who want to live their lives peacefully without upsetting other people.

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 11:01:36

twaddle

I guess that in theory the hospital should have refused to treat the patient after the nurse was racially abused. How does that compare with the way other patients are treated if they abuse staff?

Yes, hospitals have a duty of care to their staff and have protocols in place for all patients that lunge at staff and make racial slurs. This patient, hand cuffed to the 2 prison guards would be subject to the same protocols as any other patient.

MissAdventure Mon 11-May-26 11:01:53

Sometimes its necessary to let people know what's going on, if you're going to need support for your cause.

Doodledog Mon 11-May-26 11:02:30

Whitewavemark2

Hmm.

Don’t think twice about my being offended, it takes more than a bit of patronising to offend me.

I can see that this debate is going to be pretty prolonged, but suffice it to say, that we must agree to disagree on much of this subject ( not entirely, but hopefully disagree agreeably as they say), I am and have been a feminist for my entire life, but sub-sets like TERF simply do not float my boat and I frankly think them misguided and often plain wrong.
I know of one GN poster - whose child committed suicide over gender dysmorphia - so the subject always needs to be treated with a degree of empathy and intelligence.

But there you are, TERF will come and go just as so many different sub-sets have done over the millennia. That is what history teaches you.

Well we certainly will disagree - particularly if you throw about terms such as TERF, as that most definitely does not describe me, (or anyone I know for that matter). I only want to exclude transwomen from female spaces, and they are few. IMO they can go anywhere else, and think they are whatever they think they are, call themselves whatever they like, dress how they please etc. Just don't tell me that any of that is 'living like a woman', as women (the female ones) live in all sorts of ways, and men assuming that they know 'the' way is astonishingly arrogant.

I am happy to disagree agreeably, and am not offended by your patronising tone either. I often find the points in this issue are often so obvious that it's difficult not to express them simply, so maybe that does come across as patronising without intending to. Perhaps you feel the same from your 'side'.

You haven't addressed the question of what homosexuality has to do with 'gender'. I would be interested to learn what that argument is, as it is so often brought into discussions of trans issues, and I just can't see it.

Are you suggesting that I am not treating the subject with empathy or intelligence? I am, of course, very sorry to hear that a poster has lost a child. As a mother I couldn't feel otherwise, and would not dream of minimising the pain she must go through. That won't change my mind about the biological realities though, and I think it's rather unempathetic to bring in someone else's personal experiences to make a case - particularly when the poster is a member of this community.

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 11:06:09

I do agree Allira. I'm remembering the debacle over the Isla Bryson case up in Scotland when NS well and truly backed herself into a cul de sac. Her successor Humza who also tied himself in knots with a feeble "get out" they're not really a transwoman. Surely! the nub of the argument, a cynical manipulation of how some people are identifying as women. How can anyone be expected to make such a distinction in an area where they be rendered vulnerable

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 11:09:31

Allira

TerriBull

Maybe Jennifer Mellee's going to the press was questionable, but certainly not as questionable as prioritsing the rights of a scumbag over an experienced and capable nurse

Well, she had bee given a final warning and first went for advice to a Christians legal group. This may be what they advised her to do.

Most right-minded people, even her MP, support her.

This man was not transgender, he was using this as an excuse to abuse children. He is in a male prison.
People like him bring disrepute on all transgender people who want to live their lives peacefully without upsetting other people.

Melle's MP wrote a letter to the Hospital Trust seeking support- it's available on line for anyone to read. The MP couches her language "I am informed", "I understand" etc. She said if a dismissal sanction was pursued, Melle would struggle to find work whilst the NMC investigation process was outgoing.

The meeting took place and Melle herself went on record stating her thanks for the Trust giving her a second chance.

The prisoner was transgender and serving a custodial sentence in a male prison.

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 11:11:11

outgoing = ongoing

Allira Mon 11-May-26 11:13:23

MissAdventure

Sometimes its necessary to let people know what's going on, if you're going to need support for your cause.

Yes. Otherwise the nurse could be left feeling depressed and vulnerable at home. There was no reason whatsoever why she should not have sought support and well done to her if she did publicise this ludicrous decision.

She should not have received a warning for referring to a male patient (and convicted paedophile) who was recorded as male in the medical records as he or him.
He should have been warned immediately that abuse of the staff was not tolerated. The NHS Trust only did so after the publicity forced them into it.

Cardamom Mon 11-May-26 11:21:42

You haven't addressed the question of what homosexuality has to do with 'gender'

Yep, I'd be interested in hearing more about that too. Especially in light of the gay community having recently issued a statement regarding them being sidelined from the Pride activities that they, themselves, set up to raise awareness of the discrimination homo sexual people have to live with but has now been commandeered by trans. They're furious that, what was once an annual, positive, love filled weekend of activities has become an angry, aggressive demonstration where gay men no longer feel welcome or, indeed, safe. Have a look at this eye opening piece:

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16795/html/

Note to the delicate amongst you; you might find that the tone is unbelievably disrespectful! grin

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 11:38:15

Thanks for the 2020 statement link Cardamon.

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 11:39:13

We can't even apply logic to any argument anymore, individual sensibilities reign supreme. Referring to a bearded man with a penis as "Mr" is perfectly acceptable considering the crimes the man had committed, but I was always Team Mellee. If the ruling had gone against her to let his petulant racist outburst trounce hers would have been utterly ridiculous.

Cardamom Mon 11-May-26 11:46:47

You're welcome LemonJam

Oreo Mon 11-May-26 11:48:36

LemonJam

Whitewavemark2

Hmm.

Don’t think twice about my being offended, it takes more than a bit of patronising to offend me.

I can see that this debate is going to be pretty prolonged, but suffice it to say, that we must agree to disagree on much of this subject ( not entirely, but hopefully disagree agreeably as they say), I am and have been a feminist for my entire life, but sub-sets like TERF simply do not float my boat and I frankly think them misguided and often plain wrong.
I know of one GN poster - whose child committed suicide over gender dysmorphia - so the subject always needs to be treated with a degree of empathy and intelligence.

But there you are, TERF will come and go just as so many different sub-sets have done over the millennia. That is what history teaches you.

The. voice of reason- empathy and emotional intelligence. Thank you WWM2

🤬The voice of something but definitely not the ones mentioned!

Cardamom Mon 11-May-26 11:54:48

Seeing as you enjoyed that one so much, here's another:

“Unless lesbians go out of our way to say we believe that trans women are literal women,” Lyndsay says, “the assumption is that we are transphobic bigots, and our reputations are trashed.”
“Please just use my first name,” she says, “because if I am identified as being in any way gender critical, trans activists will never leave me alone.”
We meet at Sapphic Central, a spacious pub in central Balham, south-west London, which hosts a lesbian night once a month. The popular evening is always packed, with a DJ in the basement. Rickety stairs lead up to an outdoor space, lined with empty beer barrels, where half of the women congregate to smoke and chat.

Over the past decade and more, extreme trans activism has influenced our major institutions, from charities to universities – even our legal system. And as a result of the mantra “trans women are women”, alongside “no debate”, lesbian dating has been driven underground.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the biggest threat posed to lesbians gathering at a publicised social event was that of thuggish, straight men, boozed up on cheap lager and angry that some women rejected their charms. But today, the danger is from social justice warriors, intoxicated on rigorousness, and an insistence that men claiming to be women can also be lesbians and should not be excluded.

“Every single tactic we use to meet in person, trans activists have done their best to spoil it,” says Lucy, (who does not wish to use her second name). Lucy, 44, a former firefighter who attended the Grenfell disaster, has now retrained as a family law barrister. “They purposely stand in our way. And in recent years, it has got worse.”

In 2020, Lucy was thrown off Hinge, the popular dating app, for stating that she was only interested in meeting biological women. Hinge disagreed – within 24 hours, she was permanently suspended, saying that she was banned for “breaching their guidelines”. In response, Lucy took the story to the media.
There is one dating app specifically for lesbians: it’s called Her, and Lucy had already given it a try. But she encountered a new problem. “Every other profile is a man claiming to be a woman, and presenting themselves as ultra sexualised.”

It was on Tinder that Lucy eventually met her girlfriend, but even there “you are getting a ton of profiles that are meant to be female-seeking-female where it is just men pretending to be females”.

Lucy recalls the early days, in the late Nineties, when she first came to London. “It was magical. On Lewisham High Road, where I lived, there were three lesbian bars.”

Twenty years ago there were dozens of lesbian-only bars across London, and several in towns and cities elsewhere in Britain. Today, aside from the odd pop-up evening, there are virtually none that are exclusively for lesbians.

Kelly Frost, an artist, aged 49, is another lesbian who has learnt from bitter experience that running a women-only night at a so-called LGBTQ+ venue is unlikely to end well. Heated campaigns against such “transphobic” and “trans-exclusionary” practices are quickly initiated, and venue owners, managers and even bar staff, inundated with threats and complaints – and fearful of losing their livelihoods, tend to cave in to the pressure.