Makerfield: Reform candidate sexist?

Wyllow3

"The debate is around disability and abortion and the way the pro choice side ( the progressives/left) are describing people with disabilities makes me view them as empty of empathy, souless, call it what you will"

Sorry I'm genuinely not aware what is being said by pro choice on people with disabilities but it feels very concerning, what is it?

I’ve not heard an abortion debate for a long time. I’m very surprised to hear it would focus on disability especially given that only about one and a half percent of abortions are on ground E ( physical/ mental disability of the foetus). Surely any pro-choice support is on the grounds of a woman’s right to choose?

The debate focused on disability because that was the reason for the termination. A lot if it was a manufactured online storm ( my guess is the original post about the abortion was either untrue or using this event simply for content),
I agree about the right to choose but there are consequences to that. It is likely that the alternative is worse ( women not able to choose) but for me that is a 'price' that I struggle with.
Mostly it was an online storm, but there was something amongst it all about where following a mantra can lead people.

And some would chose to terminate a child with Down's Syndrome.
Some would chose to have the child.
Not all pre natal tests are accurate.
I know this from a young friend's experience.

Please don't worry about the direction of discussion. Wasn't 'Thread policing' one of the issues mentioned?

Ah.

So that is at the heart of it.

Those awful choices.

I have never, ever ask my DS and DiL this, but my DGD is very, very severely disabled:

she is nearly blind, has epilepsy, recurring, cerebral palsy, is very learning disabled indeed, is no 11 and soon their home, with 3 other children, will need hoists, carers, and she will never, ever, be able to live an independent life. sometimes very unhappy, but not in constant pain as some are, she doesn't need to be fed with a tube for example.

And of course, will all the will in the world, the other children are affected, as hit takes up maybe 70% of childcare day and some of the night. And they are superb about getting every single resource going: and mum decided to become a speech therapist after she was born:

if they had not been for the level of care they provide she would be close to a vegetable or not with us (constant hospital visits, try new drugs, push for this, push for that)

It was not a choice as oxygen deprivation at birth, unpredictable

but I do think that had they known

at least they had the right to make a choice.

Yet now she is with us, I would not be without her for the world, and neither would they, but I don't have the responsibility.

But this is where politics do come in

The arguments about limiting abortion are coming from the right not exclusively but it is a prominent plank of thought.

And I would like to see children allowed to be born whatever their needs to have the best quality of life possible. (unless it means living in constant pain and awareness of not just constant pain but "lack".

But some on the Right would also - well, it happening in the USA big time - cut benefits and lots of facilities for people with serious disabilities to lead a life worth living.

so we go round in circles and it is very complex.

Yes I know the issues, not in my family, but it has been my work for 40 years, and that may be why when I read the way people were talking about children with down syndrome that I started mentally backing away so to speak.
You speak with such love and dignity about your dgd, there was very little of that in the discussion. However I do think a lot of it was American posters and I think culturally, their view of disability may be different.

Such credit to your family, Wyllow, and yes, siblings have a different life experience to other families.
Not an easy subject, and never an easy choice.
I can imagine just how 'toxic' an online debate could become.

^ However I do think a lot of it was American posters and I think culturally, their view of disability may be different.^

I do think it is unfair to make sweeping statements about ‘progressives/the left on the basis of US attitudes.

Americans are, I think, culturally very different from the British and I would hesitate to regard their attitudes as some sort of global norm.

Galaxy, as ever you don’t she away from the complexity and ethical challenges in debates, including those on a women’s right to choose and the challenging issues around disability.

We have recently discovered one of our ten year olds has rheumatoid arthritis. My maternal grandparents both passed genes that influence the frequency of RA and other auto immune inflammatory conditions. These are life long, life changing but modern drugs really help reduce pain , exhaustion and disability. There are so many genetic links to significant health problems. Who would choose not to have children in similar circumstances

I used many examples Maizie, the abortion debate was one of them as I had just watched it unfold.
I would agree with the risks of American /British comparisons - I have never been that keen for example on analysing Reform through the lens of Trump.
Farage is in my view much more like a cheap version of Johnson than a version of Trump.

When I was pregnant with my youngest child there was an indication of possible spina bifida from the elevated AFP levels in my blood test. Immediately some people, including professionals were counselling me that I should be considering termination so as not to affect my other children and 'put a further burden on the state'. I was refusing and fortunately an ultrasound, (not a routine check during pregnancy in those days), indicated a pregnancy of more weeks gestation so the pressure on me stopped. In actual fact when the child was born it was easily established my original dates were correct and this was just a very large baby! I dread to think of the pressure that would have been exerted had that not been the case.

Oh Rosie, that was my friend's experience.
It's just not really a subject for 'intellectual' debate.
Women should not be forced, in either direction.

Wyllow3

*But this is where politics do come in*

The arguments about limiting abortion are coming from the right not exclusively but it is a prominent plank of thought.

And I would like to see children allowed to be born whatever their needs to have the best quality of life possible. (unless it means living in constant pain and awareness of not just constant pain but "lack".

But some on the Right would also - well, it happening in the USA big time - cut benefits and lots of facilities for people with serious disabilities to lead a life worth living.

so we go round in circles and it is very complex.

I echo your sentiments Wyllow3.

Whilst being firmly 'pro-choice' I am also mindful that disability can strike anyone, any age, anywhere and at any time, too, and our attitude - society's attitude - towards people who, for whatever reason, are going to or already do live a life different to ours really matters.

Maremia

Oh Rosie, that was my friend's experience.
It's just not really a subject for 'intellectual' debate.
Women should not be forced, in either direction.

I used many examples Maizie,

I’m sorry, Galaxy, but that’s just what you don’t do. The abortion debate example is something of a rarity in this respect.

If you are going to characterise ‘progressives/the left as being authoritarian and bigoted, lacking in understanding of the working classes etc. then it would be helpful to know what drives that judgement. Particularly as I don’t recognise my ‘left wing”, but undeniably middle class, friends from that description. (Or myself, though that might just be wishful thinking on my part)

From AI in answer to "Is there pressure in Iceland to terminate a pregnancy featuring Down syndrome?"

No, there is no official or legal pressure from the Icelandic government to abort fetuses diagnosed with Down syndrome. However, complex societal, structural, and cultural dynamics lead to an exceptionally high termination rate. Nearly 100% of women who receive a positive prenatal diagnosis for Down syndrome in Iceland choose to terminate their pregnancy. This statistical reality has sparked intense international debate regarding whether subtle, systemic pressures exist.

I find this situation extremely worrying and fear any such situation happening in the UK. For those parents who do have children with Down syndrome, their scarcity in countries like Iceland make it difficult to access supportive networks. I know two lovely people with Down syndrome, one a 28 year old man and the other a woman in her 50s. Both live relatively independent lives with minimal support other than from family. Both have worthwhile happy, productive lives. I think our world would be a poorer place without them.

Yes Rosie, that is so.

Galaxy

I used many examples Maizie, the abortion debate was one of them as I had just watched it unfold.
I would agree with the risks of American /British comparisons - I have never been that keen for example on analysing Reform through the lens of Trump.
Farage is in my view much more like a cheap version of Johnson than a version of Trump.

I believe there is something much more pernicious about Farage than there is/was about Johnson.

I could have given many more examples of cognitive dissonance (as I see it) but didn’t want the post to be too long.

As far as abortion goes, it has to be the woman’s right to choose in the end. To me, there is no middle ground, even though I struggle to imagine a situation under which I would have had one.

I fully understand that others disagree profoundly, and I understand why they disagree, but nobody should be able to force someone else to have a child they don’t want (or do want, but can’t support). I like to think that if a baby is prevented from being born they will get another chance when the time is right. If that is not the case, then maybe the life was never meant to be?

^ From AI in answer to "Is there pressure in Iceland to terminate a pregnancy featuring Down syndrome?"^

The same use of AI reports that
Parents of children with Down's syndrome in Iceland receive comprehensive, cradle-to-grave state and municipal support, including medical care, financial allowances, and developmental assistance

But you have to wonder if that’s possible as Rosie51 mentioned earlier,
Because prenatal screening leads to a very low live birth rate of 0-2 babies per year, the few families who welcome a child with Down's syndrome receive highly individualised attention.

It’s a difficult choice. I’m glad I never had to make it, but I believe the woman should have the right to choose.

Oh I absolutely believe in a woman's right to choose, but when babies that are less than perfect are considered not worth the pregnancy and there can be conscious or even unconscious pressure to terminate then I am concerned. I was personally told it was my 'duty' to terminate a baby who would be a drain on public finances. My reply? If one of my other children was to be incapacitated through accident or illness to the extent of a baby born with spina bifida should that child be 'terminated' was greeted with "don't be stupid, that's different!' I fail to see that difference.
Abortion isn't for me but I'd never deny another woman her right to one, but equally I don't want any woman to be pressured to have an abortion against her innermost feelings because 'society says it's the right thing to do' If society can't support those born with lifelong conditions then society isn't worth the candle!

As genetic testing gets more advanced do we consider it the right thing to advocate for the abortion of babies that we can tell will likely develop diabetes, cancer, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, heart disease etc because their maintenance and treatment will incur a cost on society? All slippery slopes start somewhere.

Rosie51, I had an amniocentesis before both my babies were born. My husband and I were given counselling about how to make a decision if the test had proved positive for Downs or a number of other conditions. At no stage was any pressure put on us, although we were fairly sure what our decision would have been. It all turned out well and we didn't have to make a decision in the end. I can't say whether there would have been a different pressure, if the test had shown genetic abnormalities.

I decided not to have the amniocentesis test when I was pregnant at 35 and 37. I was very happily married, the babies ,much wanted and I knew I’d refuse termination if the test was positive
I’m pro choice. There were other times in my life when termination would have been my choice.