Police launch an investigation into Ann Widdecombe death

Ann Widdecombe was very well known, a public figure who still aroused strong emotions, easily accessible, lived alone but unlikely to have police protection.

And her death has created a huge stir; massive publicity for whoever or whatever sick minds are behind it.

Well her death has created nothing but contempt in this house for whoever are behind it.
I know any publicity is good publicity, but killing a defenceless 79 year old woman??

Cossy

fancythat/eazybee

I think the police should have initially kept very quiet about what they did or didn’t think about this murder.

All I will say is I hope that they’ve caught the right person, and Terrorism covers quite a large remit including political elements.

Whatever the reason it seems the act of a very evil and disturbed mind, and if indeed it turns out to be political, how very sad to pick on a retired MP in her own home!

The Police and Counter terrorism services are not in competition- they are complementary - but different legislation applies to each during investigation.

Most normal/standard crimes are initially reported to the police who conduct an investigation under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act - PACE Code C legislation. The crime stays with the Police service if evidence suggests the crime is standard. The local police services have 24 hours only to detain someone without charge. They need sufficient evidence to charge- you can not charge on suspicion alone . PACE allows an extension up to 96 hours- an extension approval, early stage by a Police Superintendent and then magistrates court. They can then release on bail whilst investigation ongoing with conditions or unconditional. Suspects are held in standard local police custody suite. If a charge can not be established within the maximum 96 hours, bail is likely outcome- risk.

As an earlier poster said, in crimes such as this, with huge public interest, and involving a politician, it's a fine line how much info the police decide to release ie enough to stop feverish on line and public speculation that can have advisors consequences. The police released information according to the evidence they had at the time- with that aim in mind no doubt.

At some stage the local police likely must found evidence that suggested the crime could possibly be "counter terrorism crime" related ie not standard, (which is wide range). It doesn't not need to be an evidence based established fact possible suspicion is enough.

At that stage the local police realise there is a huge benefit in handing over the ongoing investigation to Counter-Terrorism
(CT) Services.

Benefits: CT Crime is not covered just by PACE legislation but Terrorism Act 2000- PACE Code H As a result they have 48 hours before judicial extension required (via a designated Magistrates Court) and then 14 days detention time to hold suspect solely on suspicion ( no charge required) whilst enquiries and gathering evidence continues. There is no provision for pre charge bail under Terrorism Act whcih reduces release on bail risk. The suspect is almost always, if not always, held in a secret location, high security TACT custody suite not a local police station.

This keeps a suspect in a high security TACT suite and media at bay in high profile crimes and longer to investigate before charge needed. They can interview many, many times over 14 days and the suspect is away from other standard police custody suite detained individuals.

The benefit to the detained person in a TACT custody suite? better, larger more comfortable cell plus better food.

advisors = adverse

Plus Designated Magistrates Court for TACT suite detainees will hear extension request over the weekend- local Magistrates courts usually closed.

Thanks eazybee and Lemon Jam and anyone else who posted facts about complex investigations like this one. The police will have, understandably, been under seige, under pressure to release updates, hold press conferences. I’m surprised at criticism that on the initial evidence it wasn’t seen as terrorist related. On the basis of further evidence, the conclusion shifted.
Our police involved in this murder enquiry will be desperate to get it right

I think at some point, (not now) there does need to be a further discussion about MPs safety ( I know she wasn't currently a MP) and the impact this will have on the number of people who would now want to take on this role.

She’s the third mp (retired in her case) to be murdered. Our mp has rape and death threats and lives in the constituency. It must be terrifying and seems another reason to think carefully before entering politics

She left Parliament in 2010- so was last an MP 16 years ago. Is there a suggestion MP state funded security should continue after they leave offer for many years into late 70s and beyond?

personally, I think there is a big difference between those MPs who disappear from Politics, and those that essentially dont.

They did not at any point rule out terrorism as a possible motive.

The police also said the situation is not being treated as a terrorist incident after consulting with counter-terror policing as part of "initial enquiries"

That is a rule out as far as I am concerned.

Primrose53

TerriBull

I posted this on one of the other threads regarding this awful murder, but worth repeating because an illustration of just how hateful this element of the trans lobby are. Over on MN a link to X, Heather Herbert transwoman crowing over AW's murder, "I hope it was painful" What a vile person, I hope they get a visit from the police, but I won't hold my breath.

Heather Herbert is a transgender activist who stood as a Labour Party candidate and later joined the Green Party.
thank you TerriBull.

Cannot believe that the Police say there was no criminality involved in this trans person’s shocking comments about Ann Widdecombe’s murder. Heather Herbert says she stands by what he/she said.

Lucy Connolly was sent to prison for her comments about immigrants which she deleted very soon after posting.

Devon and Cornwall Police had earlier ruled out a terrorist motive and sought to reassure the public over the weekend that the alleged murder did not appear to be politically motivated.

The investigation progressed and new information and evidence came to light and the suspect was rearrested on suspicion of commission, preparation or instigation of terrorism now covered by Terrorist Act PACE Code H- different arrest, different detention powers, different detention high security location.

Evidently it's a complex enquiry with twists and turns as new information comes to light.

Terrorism Act- PACE Code H- gives 14 days to interview and investigate the arrested person on suspicion grounds (not allowed under PACE Code C) and a call has gone out for anyone to come forward who may have any information.

Horrible. I disagreed almost entirely with her views but she had every right to hold them. That she should be murdered in her home for her opinions is beyond shocking.

Primrose53

Primrose53

TerriBull

I posted this on one of the other threads regarding this awful murder, but worth repeating because an illustration of just how hateful this element of the trans lobby are. Over on MN a link to X, Heather Herbert transwoman crowing over AW's murder, "I hope it was painful" What a vile person, I hope they get a visit from the police, but I won't hold my breath.

Heather Herbert is a transgender activist who stood as a Labour Party candidate and later joined the Green Party.
thank you TerriBull.

Cannot believe that the Police say there was no criminality involved in this trans person’s shocking comments about Ann Widdecombe’s murder. Heather Herbert says she stands by what he/she said.

Lucy Connolly was sent to prison for her comments about immigrants which she deleted very soon after posting.

Are you saying when Lucy Conelly's incited racial hatred that was acceptable??

What is free speech and what is a crime when individuals express their views online and in social media communications- where should the line be drawn?

First relatively recent Granset post I could find quickly:

"He fears for his safety as Ian Huntley was on this wing and he knows what happened to him. Good. I hope every second is torture".

HH's quote was, for sure, morally repugnant - expressing a horrible, vile, personal view.

Lucy Connolly, prompted by a false rumour that an illegal immigrant was responsible for the nurder of three girls in Southport, admitted that in her X post, to 9,000 followers, reposted 940 times, she was actively inciting racial hatred when she called for 'mass deportation now.... set fire to all hotels (housing asylum seekers)' etc. ....

Connolly understood she had committed a criminal offence, which she admitted in court, no doubt in order to receive a reduced sentence. On appeal, 3 appeal judges ruled her 31 month sentence was "not manifestly excessive".

Basgetti, I agree nobody should be murdered in their own home for their opinions, if indeed that was the motive for her murder.

Primrose53

Cannot believe that the Police say there was no criminality involved in this trans person’s shocking comments about Ann Widdecombe’s murder...

Unfortunately, I think - but am not sure - that in order for a comment like that to become a criminal offence, the poster has to have incited violence as opposed to just stating her opinion... however hateful it is. And I agree with you, it is shocking.

I'm also shocked that this TW activist is doubling-down on the comment. However, it is well known on these boards that TW activists in some instances don't hesitate to proclaim their violent hatred of those that don't agree with their stance. So maybe not that surprising? But, to wish an extremely painful death on Miss Widdecombe, knowing that her family will see or hear about that comment ???

I agree with Lemon Jam. it is not at all comparable for the reasons outlined it was inciting Racial hatred as well a violence: I find HH's comments disgusting as any decent persons would.

If it is a crime, it is another one, but sadly such comments are actually very, very common in the nastier corners of SM. Death threats, rape threats, the lot. You could not prosecute them all, even if there was a law.

For example, take these two LP MP's

"Labour MP Louise Haigh has received death threats and extreme online abuse.In December 2016, she received "very explicit death threats" on social media after she proposed a parliamentary debate to ban the far-right group Britain First.

An internet troll targeted her YouTube channel, stating he "would not rest until I was murdered," which prompted South Yorkshire Police to install panic alarms in her office and home, and provide her with undercover protection.

While there are no specific official reports of her being targeted with rape threats, female MPs frequently face widespread gender-based abuse and intimidation; for example, her parliamentary colleagues like Jess Phillips have documented receiving mass rape threats.

chestnut

Check out the face of this person, ugly inside and out!

Is this really about people's appearance???

Wyllow3

I agree with Lemon Jam. it is not at all comparable for the reasons outlined it was inciting Racial hatred as well a violence: I find HH's comments disgusting as any decent persons would.

If it is a crime, it is another one, but sadly such comments are actually very, very common in the nastier corners of SM. Death threats, rape threats, the lot. You could not prosecute them all, even if there was a law.

I also agree with LemonJam

The differences between the two cases is obvious. How anyone can genuinely believe they are the same is beyond me.

The transwoman’s comments are abhorrent, but we do have the right to free speech within the law - many of LC’s supporters were very vocal about wanting free speech to be defended, IIRC. Her crime wasn’t about speech or opinion, however, but about incitement and racism.

I'm not sure how this thread can go to 345 posts examining every detail and possible motive for this crime when the Police have asked for this not to happen and the main TV channels aren't even allowed to discuss it because it might hamper the Police investigation.

Just saying..... 🕵️‍♂️