Burnham to tell schools in England to adapt teaching to local business needs- what do you think?

Tuliptree

Mamie

Many of us working in education were angry when the excellent Tomlinson report with the four level diploma plan including vocational education was dropped. A lot of people, including the press, started banging on about the "gold standard" of GCSE and A level.
I suspect many of the people objecting had not bothered to read it, just as people who argue for things to be included in the National Curriculum, have not bothered to read the existing programmes of study.

One of the problems is that journalists commenting on vocational education are mostly private school/ Oxbridge and know little if anything about that world. Much less would they want their children anywhere near it. I honestly think as a country we’re congenitally incapable of giving due respect and status to vocational education and trades. The private school sector won’t touch that type of education/ training - imagine George, Charlotte or Louis being apprentices .

And this is the first ridiculous uninformed comment in an interesting, balanced discussion.

"The private school sector won’t touch that type of education/ training - imagine George, Charlotte or Louis being apprentices".

I wonder if Charles would have preferred to be a gardener?

I don't have any issue with what Andy Burnham is suggesting, it is what is offered after school in college (though I have not heard of manufacturing qualifications being offered)

Having experience of working with young people though, part of the issue with those that wont or don't work, their parents don't either.

As wooly, lefty socialist I never thought I would type this but work needs to pay more than benefits do.

JenniRen

"The private school sector won’t touch that type of education/ training - imagine George, Charlotte or Louis being apprentices".

I wonder if Charles would have preferred to be a gardener?

Actually some private schools do offer gardening and other skills alongside the curriculum.

Not every private school runs like Eton 🤦‍♀️

Just like children from deprived backgrounds, the Royal children will probably find their future is predestined. It would take courage to break away from it.

Although we do need to encourage more young people to follow the technical and vocational route and we definitely need to start treating apprenticeships with the respect they deserve, I do wonder if training young people to fulfil the needs of local businesses is restrictive? Shouldn't we be encouraging them to widen their horizons, be adaptable rather than expect them to stay in the areas where they grew up for the rest of their lives?

From private schools I have taught in, West Country:

Plumbers
Husbandry
Stable hands
Photographers
Heritage trades
Culinary world
Leisure
Etc.

They don't all go into law or banking you know, although even KPMG and EY offer apprenticeships.

GrannyGravy13

JenniRen

"The private school sector won’t touch that type of education/ training - imagine George, Charlotte or Louis being apprentices".

I wonder if Charles would have preferred to be a gardener?

Actually some private schools do offer gardening and other skills alongside the curriculum.

Not every private school runs like Eton 🤦‍♀️

I know 😀

It wasn't me who said that, I was quoting another poster and just musing if Charles would have preferred to be a gardener. He loves his plants!

MartavTaurus

From private schools I have taught in, West Country:

Plumbers
Husbandry
Stable hands
Photographers
Heritage trades
Culinary world
Leisure
Etc.

They don't all go into law or banking you know, although even KPMG and EY offer apprenticeships.

If the private schools in the West country offer vocational trade studies like plumbing, cooking, stable hand, heritage trade leisure etc linked to local business apprentice type work experience well done those schools. Most private schools in the west country however appear to market their strengths on academic, sports and arts achievements and A levels results as entry qualification to university. Which private schools in the West country offer vocational trade education from 14 years old with apprenticeship placements?

There is no doubt that children from private schools may end up in a trade job but was that as a result of the private school specifically school offering vocational training in trades? What proportion of the pupils in the schools you taught in received trade vocational training compared to the promotion receiving predominantly academic education with a view to go to university?

There is no doubt the state funded system would hugely benefit from the financial resources that private schools enjoy per pupil.

According to A1: The West Country and South West of England feature many notable independent and private schools offering strong academic and pastoral options across Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Wiltshire, and Gloucestershire.

The percentage of children that achieve A level passes in academic subjects and grades is available on line and its high. They do not appear to focus on vocational trade education from 14 years old onwards.

Top Senior and All-Through Schools

Millfield School Renowned globally for combining high academic standards with an elite sports setup.
Cheltenham College & Cheltenham Ladies' College Highly prestigious academic institutions set in and around Cheltenham.
Sherborne School & Sherborne Girls Historic companion boarding schools offering exceptional academic and co-curricular programs in the heart of Sherborne.
Blundell's School A prominent co-educational day and boarding school with deep regional roots and strong outdoor education pathways.
King Edward's School A top-performing selective day school known for exceptional GCSE and A-level results.
Dauntsey's School A leading co-educational boarding and day school near Salisbury Plain with a reputation for adventure and academic breadth.
* Downside School* One of England's oldest Catholic co-educational boarding and day schools, located near Bath.
* Marlborough College* Co-educational full boarding education with outstanding opportunities academically, in sports and the arts. Catherine Middleton was a pupil here

I actually worked at Millfield School. A lot of vocational training is offered in house, because this is the essence of private schools, to go beyond formal academic education. DS1 did his canoeing instructors course, and life saving certificates there before leading expeditions abroad. Also there's a cookery school where pupils can access training, and there are pathways to equine studies and husbandry. One of DD's friends learnt leather skills at school there and is now a top end handbag designer!

So I guess my answer to your questions would be a yes, in several cases. There is no doubt that children from private schools may end up in a trade job but was that as a result of the private school specifically school offering vocational training in trades?

My point in this was that saying private school puils know nothing of the real world and wouldn't touch vocational training is incorrect. Some do take this route, encouraged by the schools they attend.

One of our local private schools has a working farm and teaches agricultural subjects to students. It is very popular and has waiting lists, costs a b. fortune though. It used to be a place where wealthy farmers sent children but has broadened out now. Are there such places in the UK ?

Yes, nanna8 there's definitely a couple in Dorset I know of, and maybe Gloucestershire. Sorry, I'm not at home so haven't time to look them up at the moment.

JenniRen my local college (used to be a "tech") still have bricklaying, car mechanics etc but unfortunately the courses are very short and not at all like a full apprenticeship. When they partner with firms the students can't progress in the apprenticeships without passing English and Maths.

My (car) garage had a young mechanic trainee from the college a few years ago "with the best mechanics hands ever seen". He couldn't pass maths. He went with him and his father to try to sort a different pathway for him. The young man had three attempts - and had to drop out of the training.

My lovely garage owner fought to keep him but couldn't.

He hasn't taken on a trainee since. He has had apprentices for nearly 30 years.

Thanks MartavTaurus-

I did post that if private schools in the "West Country offer vocational trade studies like plumbing, cooking, stable hand, heritage trade leisure etc linked to local business apprentice type work experience well done those schools".

Thanks for your feedback regarding Millfield and I genuinely applaud Millfield school in delivering canoeing instructor's course, life saving certificates, expeditions abroad, a cookery school where pupils can access training, pathways to equine studies and husbandry and leather skills. It's great that Millfield has the resources to do all these things and does not solely focus on academic achievement. 👏

For me the issue is that well funded private schools have the resources and teachers to be able to do both- vocational courses and academic excellence.

State schools are not so well resourced as Millfield we probably all accept- hence Andy Burham's proposals for children not fortunate enough to be able to board at Millfield. If state schools are able to achieve a level playing field with schools like Millfield that would be a wonderful thing. 😊

Millfield School evidently has a swimming pool- access to a river and canoe equipment for canoeing certificate, has its own cookery school- parents can afford to pay for expeditions abroad? State schools simply can't compete with this level of privileged resources.

JenniRen

Just like children from deprived backgrounds, the Royal children will probably find their future is predestined. It would take courage to break away from it.

Although we do need to encourage more young people to follow the technical and vocational route and we definitely need to start treating apprenticeships with the respect they deserve, I do wonder if training young people to fulfil the needs of local businesses is restrictive? Shouldn't we be encouraging them to widen their horizons, be adaptable rather than expect them to stay in the areas where they grew up for the rest of their lives?

That was my first thought. Especially as local industry could change over time or even close down completely. Which is why children did start doing subjects that weren’t job specific.

My ex husband always used to bemoan the fact that engineers were regarded as inferior in this country. He said that in eg Germany engineers were respected in the way that doctors are here.

Millfield School fees per term currently- 9 years upwards per term- 3 terms a year:
Day pupils £13,155 x 3 = £39,465 per year
Boarding: £20,205 = £60,615 per year

Gov.uk School education funding statistics 2026/27:
On a per-pupil basis the total funding allocated for 2026/27 is £8,580 per child for the year , ie one fifth of the day pupil fees at MIllfield School

Andy Burnham needs to cut his cloth accordingly.

LemonJam

Millfield School evidently has a swimming pool- access to a river and canoe equipment for canoeing certificate, has its own cookery school- parents can afford to pay for expeditions abroad? State schools simply can't compete with this level of privileged resources.

Yes, it's Olympic size.

I 100% get what you're saying that Andy Burnham needs to cut his cloth accordingly, and luckily pupils don't need a 50m swimming pool, or even a pool at all, in order to find a successful future career.

But it still remains, that children are children whatever, and to say that one particular group of children would avoid going anywhere near vocational training gets up my nose!

Vocational, especially technical subjects, are more expensive as they require workshops, equipment, etc. Very few technical high schools were built in the 1950s owing to their cost. Where is the extra money for the change?

I do think we shouldn't forget that not all firms /companies will be able to help. They may not have enough staff or enough spare cash to help . I wonder if there will be financial incentive to get firms interested.

It is about time. For far far too long politicians have followed bloody Blair’s ludicrous idea that 50% of Britain’s workforce should hold a degree. Of course our politicial and media class almost without exception, since Labour stopped choosing MPs from union backgrounds, HAVE held degrees which is why vocational training - FURTHER education rather than Higher education, (which not only trains school leavers but, until recently, also re-trained flocks of women returners and second career folk aged around 35-45 and provided SO MANY opportunities) has been seen as “just painting and decorating”.

A whole generation have been cast into the scrap heap and currently are not only almost unemployable but also do not have the opportunity to find work as all the ‘first job’ starter opportunities have been spun into ‘zero hours contracts’.

I cheer this new fresh approach with every fibre of my being.

Back to the fifties, 11 plus, kids follow academic path or technical trades path. Should have been left like that but with more flexibility for those kids that got themselves on the wrong path at 11. Ask any secondary school teacher who has had to teach mixed ability classes.

Totally agree that a Uni education isn't the way to go for all young people but seem to remember having heard several years ago about how schools should help prepare students for local area workforce. IMO the problem with that is how do teachers split themselves in half to prepare students for further education and students who may decide on tech qualifications - back to the old system of grammars and secondary moderns?

M0nica

The purpose of parenting and education is to bring up our children to be able to earn a living and play a useful part in society. Humanity's continued existence has depended on its ability to provide itself with the food, shelter, clothes and warmth it needs to stop it dying out. The fact that the majority of us work in jobs and industries that could not be further separated from agriculture does not undermine that basic connection between our need to work to justify our place in life.

Countries like Germany, France, Holland, Denmark all have system of technical schools integrated with the secondary school system and also have dedicated technical universities, counted as among the most prestigious in their countries. We have Imperial College - and that is it, Even at Imperial College less than 40% of all students are British. Over 60% are overseas students.

There has been a peculiar snobbishness in Britain for the last 200 years about anyone who gets their hands dirty making or doing anything technical, and professional engineers are rated as much further down the social scale than lawyers or accountants.

DH is a Chartered Engineer. When working in any European country his business card describes him as 'Eur Ing', much as anyone might have 'doctor; or 'Professor' on their card in the UK. In the UK no such title exists

Some years ago i was sorting out insurance for our car, I was asked what my DH's occupation was. When I said 'Chartered Engineer the person behind the counter, looked at me anxiously and said 'Does that mean he works in a garage?'

If we want better technical education and at all levels, we must start treating engineers with the respect they get elsewhere in the world.

I agree, my husband was also a chartered civil engineer specialising in huge water projects all over the world, working on projects funded by the World Bank and the EU amongst others. Many people imagined that this meant he was a plumbler...