History repeating itself

Cossy

MayBee70

Remember that Reform have said that if they get elected they will declare a state of emergency and keep parliament open six days a week till they get all their legislation though. That scared me when I heard Farage say it.

It’s incredibly scary!

Yes, I listened to Farage and read others.

It is so very worrying, and people need to think further than immigration.

Imagine that Reform do indeed stop migration in its tracts - what then?

What about all the other stated policies?

What will happen to our rights as women? The NHS, the policy towards Russia and a right wing USA. Workers rights? Benefits, pensions - democracy.

Yes but why has this situation arisen? Why, in a democratic country have people voted in this way? Harping back to the 1930s doesn't cover it. What's the problem right now?

Aveline

Yes but why has this situation arisen? Why, in a democratic country have people voted in this way? Harping back to the 1930s doesn't cover it. What's the problem right now?

I agree with your post.

There is a reason people are unhappy across Europe, maybe this will be a wake up call for other parties.

There are sections of the electorate Europe wide that feel their concerns and problems are not being listened to nor addressed.
When a party promises they will do just that, they will get elected…

MartavTaurus

I think we have to be very careful here not to label AfD a neo-Nazi party. It is not a direct replica of the historical Nazi party, and there are legal implications in Germany when calling it such. It is not an underground neo-Nazi movement, but a far right populist party.

And mentioning Hitler on every occasion is not helpful, in my opinion. It's rhetoric.

Having said that, I do think that what is now happening across Europe is unsettling.

I must say I agree with every word and also your other posts on this thread.
Hitler this and Nazi that type posts are indeed very unhelpful.

Aveline

Yes but why has this situation arisen? Why, in a democratic country have people voted in this way? Harping back to the 1930s doesn't cover it. What's the problem right now?

We know what the problem is right across Europe, it’s over migration both legal and illegal.
Governments have allowed it and then not solved the problem of it continuing to happen.

What's the problem right now that's the million dollar question Aveline and the one that all political parties whether or not they're in power, need to be asking.

David49

There is a move to the right in many countries including the UK, voters dont like the changes that have been made in recent years. Unless government responds to the worries voters have they will be voted out, thats the way democracy works.

Exactly that.

MayBee70

And did anyone listen to Bravermans plans for education including teaching children about how great the British Empire was and asking parents to report schools that don’t fly the union flag and other stuff like that.

How appalling!

We cannot “hide” history, nor should we, we should “learn” from history.

Learning which includes admitting that what might have been acceptable back in the day is no longer so.

Oh the irony of a black woman applauding the Empire.

Aveline

Yes but why has this situation arisen? Why, in a democratic country have people voted in this way? Harping back to the 1930s doesn't cover it. What's the problem right now?

It is as you’d expect the result if a number of reasons.

Primarily I think is that east Germany since unification has always felt “left behind” economically, and the young have emigrated to the western states to find employment etc. the result being that the population of eastern Germany is older than average, and are more conservative. The AfD have been relatively strong in eastern Germany for years, and the relationship with Russia until the 80s explains the AfDs friendly attitude to Russia.

Immigration is not an issue in this state, although of course as you’d expect the AfD are weaponising it.

I’d be happy if children were taught how great the British Empire was because it was great. So was the Roman Empire, so was the Austrian Hungarian Empire, so was the Turkish Ottoman Empire. I think it is very bad to deny the past. Not everything is black and white. There are a lot of traitors around now.

Great in as much as it was large.

Many of empires actions are not so great though.

I think a balance needs to be brought to bear.

Like the curates egg. Good in parts.

Galaxy

France.
Direct action here.
It is not just about economics, it is a failure of the other parties to listen to concerns. There have been a number of commentators ( some who were on the left) saying very clearly where this would end up.

I agree! it's not purely about economics although that is of course a factor. It's about a prevailing discontent as to how we are adding to our own criminal underclass with men who emanate from parts of the world with a wholly different cultural attitude. I remember Merkel said something along these lines when she allowed so many young men to settle in Germany and in the aftermath of that it became evident that there was an escalation in rape and sexual assaults "when that happens it's a betrayal of the worse kind" it's that in a nutshell. This country has had a history of taking in refugees and assimilating them some of those going on to being an outstanding success. Ugandan Asians, Vietnamese more lately Ukrainians, although many of those have gone back. Never before with any of those to my knowledge have there been a spate of sexual assaults as those that have occurred lately, which includes not only young girls and women but also an elderly man and a boy. It's not only here there is also a growing discontent in Ireland as well as mainland Europe. I've read, that the IRA, previous darlings of the left are committed to ridding their country of asylum seekers. I know the usual response is "ah what about our home grown miscreants" Yes! and as the Middlesborough deaths have demonstrated, we need a lot more money spent in places that have been literally hollowed out through lack of resources and as a result the town has developed into a dark dystopian places where lawlessness is becoming the norm. Adding more undocumented men into an existing anarchic millieu isn't going to pan out well for society. It is often about pro rata, why would we want to add any more into a burgeoning underworld, even one rape or murder is too many!

Then we have been warned that there will be sleeper cells coming across from Iran and it will only take one atrocity, and please God that doesn't happen to tip what we now have on our streets into serious civil unrest the mood is simmering away and has been allowed by successive governments to build.

I will quote David up thread "unless governments respond to the concerns voters have, they will be voted out" essentially that! I don't want history repeating itself in the form of far right governments, equally that is not a desirable outcome for society, we have always veered towards the moderate middle ground here in Britain.

Whilst the government are doing their best reduce costs in moving these men out of hotels, swamping small villages and surrounding towns with young men who have little to do with their time than hang around is far from ideal and at worst demonstrates a very cavalier attitude to ordinary people's fears.

TerriBull brilliant post 👏👏👏

Aveline

Yes but why has this situation arisen? Why, in a democratic country have people voted in this way? Harping back to the 1930s doesn't cover it. What's the problem right now?

I agree. Right now is the issue.
AfD is a new party, I believe in the last 12 years. It has a fairly young membership.
Irrespective of what happened nearly 100 years ago.
In the case of Germany, the higher you climb, the harder you fall. They are experiencing a major turning point in their relationship with immigration.

Terribull 👏 👏 👏

Can you not see why we (ie UK and Europe) are seeing so many more people seeking asylum?

In the recent past, 300,000 people, men, women and children, have been displaced, mainly due to illegal wars, but also geographical climate issues and corrupt governments.

Of course, if, as some believe, all of these people are “economic” migrants, then they should apply for visas, and come here using legal means.

Naturally those who are “genuine” asylum seekers, have no legal route nor “visa” for which to apply.

Yes, it is an issue. It’s an issue in so many ways, for us in the UK, Europe, and the actual people arriving here via illegal means.

In my humble opinion, the only real answer to all of this is for all governments and countries involved to work together. 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

I very much doubt this will ever happen, especially as some governments involved are the cause of the issues, Gaza, Ukraine, Iran and Afghanistan.

In the meantime, yes, governments should hear, listen and act on their own citizen’s concerns.

However, if the migrant/asylum seeker issue was resolved tomorrow, what then?

It’s clearly not an easy situation to resolve, whatever any of us believe, it it had been the Tories would have resolved it.

Goodness Cossy are you really blaming Ukraine for their situation? Should they just let Russia walk in and take increasing parts of their country?

MartavTaurus

Aveline

Yes but why has this situation arisen? Why, in a democratic country have people voted in this way? Harping back to the 1930s doesn't cover it. What's the problem right now?

I agree. Right now is the issue.
AfD is a new party, I believe in the last 12 years. It has a fairly young membership.
Irrespective of what happened nearly 100 years ago.
In the case of Germany, the higher you climb, the harder you fall. They are experiencing a major turning point in their relationship with immigration.

I don’t agree, because time and again, history repeats itself. Surges from the right are nothing new, people don’t learn the lessons of the past, and old grievances perpetuate over centuries, never mind from a hundred years ago. If you don’t look to the past, you have no comprehension of what causes the current issues.

Am afraid the present political establishment in the western world has made it increasingly difficult for ordinary working class people to make a living. Opportunities for millions are non existent and generations have never worked. Yet the rich are getting richer to the point of obscenity, and governments are hog tied to big corporations and media barons who call all the shots.
Deregulating big business and putting people’s futures in the hands of privateers has made everything in life transactional, with people either able to afford to live or not. Morals ceased to exist decades ago. We live in a post-moral era.
So how do those at the top avoid being blamed for what is happening?
They give the masses a scapegoat.
Of course illegal inmigration is a political issue but not the only political issue, however, it has been blown out of all proportion in order to make other political issues pale into insignificance.
Also various foreign adventuring in the ME and North Africa has not inconsiderably added to the illegal immigrant problem we face today.
And with the war in Iran and crippling sanctions there it is set to get worse.

The most interesting question for me is - why dont the German voters who have experienced directly the consequences of political extremism, feel that historical memory outweighs todays grievances?

Terribull Great post 👏👏👏👏👏👏

Rosie51

Goodness Cossy are you really blaming Ukraine for their situation? Should they just let Russia walk in and take increasing parts of their country?

I think you’ve either accidentally or quite deliberately misinterpreted my post.

Of course I don’t blame Ukraine, I blame the Russian government, and the continued interference from Trump and co.

I also don’t blame the ordinary folk in Iran, Gaza or Afghanistan, I blame their corrupt leaders.

I thought I’d made that crystal clear, apologies, as it was clearly open to interpretation.

Whitewavemark2

The most interesting question for me is - why dont the German voters who have experienced directly the consequences of political extremism, feel that historical memory outweighs todays grievances?

My response to that is “why would they”?

Sadly, Germany had years and years of propaganda.

There will be few left now living in Germany, who actually lived through the holocaust.

Fallingstar

Am afraid the present political establishment in the western world has made it increasingly difficult for ordinary working class people to make a living. Opportunities for millions are non existent and generations have never worked. Yet the rich are getting richer to the point of obscenity, and governments are hog tied to big corporations and media barons who call all the shots.
Deregulating big business and putting people’s futures in the hands of privateers has made everything in life transactional, with people either able to afford to live or not. Morals ceased to exist decades ago. We live in a post-moral era.
So how do those at the top avoid being blamed for what is happening?
They give the masses a scapegoat.
Of course illegal inmigration is a political issue but not the only political issue, however, it has been blown out of all proportion in order to make other political issues pale into insignificance.
Also various foreign adventuring in the ME and North Africa has not inconsiderably added to the illegal immigrant problem we face today.
And with the war in Iran and crippling sanctions there it is set to get worse.

I completely agree.

Very true Cossy.
The history of extremism in the 1930s will be of little interest to many of today’s population, either in Germany or the rest of Europe as is clearly illustrated by politics in the region.