History repeating itself

David49

There is a move to the right in many countries including the UK, voters dont like the changes that have been made in recent years. Unless government responds to the worries voters have they will be voted out, thats the way democracy works.

I agree with this.

Things got pushed too far.

I said a month or two ago, somewhere on this forum, that things would blow, in one way or another, about this subject.[I am looking at what is happening at Dover and Portsmouth].
I am suprised it has taken this long, actually.

^It is so very worrying, and people need to think further than immigration.
^

But the illegality[yes i know once they reach here they are no longer illegal] is in our faces everyday.

And many governments seem powerless[or act almost powerless].
What does that say to the general populace?
Many things actually.

Churchill said ‘those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it’

Smileless2012

^What's the problem right now^ that's the million dollar question Aveline and the one that all political parties whether or not they're in power, need to be asking.

Let's ask the question here- what is the problem right now that all political parties need to be asking and are ignoring?

Sallywally1

Churchill said ‘those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it’

Sorry to bore, but long long before Churchill, the famous German philosopher Georg Hegel said that past historical lessons cannot easily be applied to new, unique situations.
What experience and history teach is this—that peoples and governments have never learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.

Here's the quote in German: Was die Erfahrung und die Geschichte lehren, ist dieses, daß Völker und Regierungen niemals etwas aus der Geschichte gelernt und nach Lehren, die aus derselben zu ziehen gewesen wären, gehandelt haben.

It's all to do with the philosophy of ^ Zeitgeist^.

Cossy

Fallingstar

Am afraid the present political establishment in the western world has made it increasingly difficult for ordinary working class people to make a living. Opportunities for millions are non existent and generations have never worked. Yet the rich are getting richer to the point of obscenity, and governments are hog tied to big corporations and media barons who call all the shots.
Deregulating big business and putting people’s futures in the hands of privateers has made everything in life transactional, with people either able to afford to live or not. Morals ceased to exist decades ago. We live in a post-moral era.
So how do those at the top avoid being blamed for what is happening?
They give the masses a scapegoat.
Of course illegal inmigration is a political issue but not the only political issue, however, it has been blown out of all proportion in order to make other political issues pale into insignificance.
Also various foreign adventuring in the ME and North Africa has not inconsiderably added to the illegal immigrant problem we face today.
And with the war in Iran and crippling sanctions there it is set to get worse.

I completely agree.

I'm another that agrees Fallingstar. Then I ask myself does this shift me towards the far right to vote for Reform? that raises questions:

1) What would Reform UK do differently, specifically to create work opportunities for younger generations?
2) I watch the Reform UK leader Farage lining his pockets £ and growing his property portfolio, generating £s by his broadcasting. I look at the moneyed people surrounding him. Would that change in government?
3) I watch how Farage and his senior advisors court big corporations and media bosses- would those figures become the benefactors of his government as a priority before working people?
4) Reform actively seeks deregulation of big business
5) personally I find his morals questionable. An example is how he reacted to the woman being violently assaulted at his conference a few days ago.
6) Currently Reform Uk's scapegoats are immigrants and asylum seekers- who would be next?
7) If Reform UK was in government earlier this year he would have supported Trump in a heart beat.

I believe we are living in the last few decades of the so called democratic state supported by taxation. Parliamentary democracy has become dreadfully old fashioned and no longer gives the ordinary people a vote. The original idea of democracy was that every citizen had a vote on every matter as in the Greek city states. (Well every made citizen.) Parliamentary democracy evolved as populations increased so it was no longer feasible to gather the entire population for a decision. We elected representatives to speak for us.
In this day of the universal smart phone we have the technology for every British born citizen over 18 to have a vote on every item - rather than paying a bunch of 650 people to sit on their asses in an old fashioned building and do it.

I've just been listening to an interview with Libby Purves on Times Radio, I didn't catch it all because I was driving back from the shops. What she did say, as I recall it, is that there are a lot of bogus asylum claims, insomuch as many applicants are being groomed to read from a script. False claims are being made about sexual orientation, gay and bi. Straight men being urged to go to gay clubs and nightclubs and filming themselves there as supporting evidence. Similar claims as to posing as Christian converts in churches. Allegedly this deception is wide spread. She went on to say, that it's also reported that those that do have their applications turned down are rarely deported.

She did further go on to say, apropos of the recent demonstrations down in Dover she's 100% against masked up men marching in balaclavas and if she had her way she would have face coverings banned.

Lemonjam 11:32

It’s a really interesting question and you may get many different answers.

For me, I genuinely feel, that whatever government is in “power”, sometimes us normal folk become frustrated in many ways, for many reasons.

I have concerns, they are around many issues;

1) I honestly think sometimes the expectations of our governments are quite unreasonable and “un-doable” in the timescales people demand.

2) I have concerns about how “we” (as in the UK) will actually fill the gaps missing in our public services, hospital staff at all levels, GPs, Police, Teachers, then the “gaps” we might have in Science and AI.

3) How to resolve our housing crisis, particular social housing.

4) How to “motivate” the vast numbers of 18-25 year old young people to address their medical and mental health issues and to take great strides towards paid work.

5) likewise breaking the cycle of generational welfare claimants.

6) Linked to 4) & 5) how to fill the huge void of community mental health care.

7) Cost of living and particularly food production.

8) Resolving, justly and fairly and finally our asylum seeker and migration issues. Whilst acknowledging, we do have an issue, but not attempting to apportion blame on these groups where it doesn’t exist.

9) Safety of ALL women and children. Including gay women, and where applicable Trans women. Safety of these people which isn’t detrimental to other women and children.

9) Complete revamp of our prison and justice system.

I completely acknowledge and accept that these are my concerns, which may not mirror other people’s.

If I had something further to add, it would simply be in order for our MPs, government, Cabinet to acknowledge and note, and where possible action, voters concerns there needs to be some “meetings of minds” and understanding on both sides.

We, (well most us), do have pretty easy access to our local MPs and local councillors.

If we have an issue we need answers to, we really need to lobby or arrange a visit to speak to those in power who might be able help us.

I don’t understand how people who support political parties that have an agenda based on attacking a certain group of people don’t realise that they could be next on the list.

TerriBull

I've just been listening to an interview with Libby Purves on Times Radio, I didn't catch it all because I was driving back from the shops. What she did say, as I recall it, is that there are a lot of bogus asylum claims, insomuch as many applicants are being groomed to read from a script. False claims are being made about sexual orientation, gay and bi. Straight men being urged to go to gay clubs and nightclubs and filming themselves there as supporting evidence. Similar claims as to posing as Christian converts in churches. Allegedly this deception is wide spread. She went on to say, that it's also reported that those that do have their applications turned down are rarely deported.

She did further go on to say, apropos of the recent demonstrations down in Dover she's 100% against masked up men marching in balaclavas and if she had her way she would have face coverings banned.

This is the info gained via AI covering that last 12 months:-

In the 12 months leading up to June 2026, 116,000 individuals received initial decisions on their asylum claims in the UK.
(https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-june-2026/summary-of-latest-statistics)

The Home Office Immigration Statistics and reports from the BBC break down the results of these processed applications as follows:

Total Decisions Processed: 116,000 individual initial decisions.

Claims Granted: 38% (roughly 44,000 people) were granted refugee status or another form of humanitarian protection.

Claims Refused: 62% (roughly 72,000 people) were refused protection

This high rate of decision-making has significantly cleared the backlog, dropping the number of people awaiting an initial decision to approximately 40,000—a 56% decrease compared to the previous year.

The figure 116,000 is not the amount of people arriving in year to June 2026, but includes many arriving prior to June 2025, due to huge backlogs in processing.

In that same period, only 12,000 of the 72,000 “initially refused” have actually been deported, an assumption is made that the remaining 60,000 are awaiting the results of appeals.

Perhaps the appeal process needs serious reviewing and tightening?

This process in the UK is pretty similar to those used in other European countries.

MayBee70

I don’t understand how people who support political parties that have an agenda based on attacking a certain group of people don’t realise that they could be next on the list.

Absolutely!!

Whitewavemark2

The most interesting question for me is - why dont the German voters who have experienced directly the consequences of political extremism, feel that historical memory outweighs todays grievances?

For many years over the winter we have spent a lot of time in Spain on campsites with Germans.
The subject of the AFD has often come up in conversation.
When the subject of what you allude to comes up they are adamant that that is history.
They are more concerned with what is happening to their country now.
Obviously you have to take them at their word when they say that migrants do not respect the German way of life and have no intention of changing their ways in regard to women.

I 100% agree with Cosy a lot of people only hear Reform promising to stop the boats and other crackdowns on illegal immigration, which is what most people in this country want, they are not listening to their other intentions Farage is to much like Trump for my liking, do we really want our country to be like America

"You have to take them at their word when they say migrants do not respect the German way of life" The New Year Cologne incident where mass sexual assaults took place, followed by an initial cover up, was a seminal moment in the turning of the tide as to those perceptions. Those practices are not unknown in the Arabic world, Tahir Square in Cairo has seen similar. A practice where mob sexual assaults have taken place where many men would surround individual women, thus separating her from companions. They would then strip, grope, beat and rape these unfortunate women. Google the assault of journalist Lara Logan whilst reporting from Tahir Square and how she was subjected to a brutal, prolonged sexual assault and beating by such a large mob

TerriBull

"You have to take them at their word when they say migrants do not respect the German way of life" The New Year Cologne incident where mass sexual assaults took place, followed by an initial cover up, was a seminal moment in the turning of the tide as to those perceptions. Those practices are not unknown in the Arabic world, Tahir Square in Cairo has seen similar. A practice where mob sexual assaults have taken place where many men would surround individual women, thus separating her from companions. They would then strip, grope, beat and rape these unfortunate women. Google the assault of journalist Lara Logan whilst reporting from Tahir Square and how she was subjected to a brutal, prolonged sexual assault and beating by such a large mob

Terrible! I think most of us, in fact all of us, would agree that this is totally unacceptable and that ANYONE wanting to live in countries which are not their countries of birth has to accept the laws of the land they choose.

Yet our government will not allow police statistics of rapes and assaults by migrants to be released.

Aveline

Yet our government will not allow police statistics of rapes and assaults by migrants to be released.

A quick peak at local newspapers and/or court reports tells you why…

TerriBull

"You have to take them at their word when they say migrants do not respect the German way of life" The New Year Cologne incident where mass sexual assaults took place, followed by an initial cover up, was a seminal moment in the turning of the tide as to those perceptions. Those practices are not unknown in the Arabic world, Tahir Square in Cairo has seen similar. A practice where mob sexual assaults have taken place where many men would surround individual women, thus separating her from companions. They would then strip, grope, beat and rape these unfortunate women. Google the assault of journalist Lara Logan whilst reporting from Tahir Square and how she was subjected to a brutal, prolonged sexual assault and beating by such a large mob

I would add that in Cairo rape is a crime and long sentences can be given.

(I’m not in any way condoning this behaviour wherever it takes place)

Aveline

Yet our government will not allow police statistics of rapes and assaults by migrants to be released.

I cant think why...

Even I am getting to the point soon of blaming ordinary citizens who wanted even the early arrivals here[as well as blaming successive governments].

Back in the day, I was a Gastarbeiter in West Germany. These were people who had been recruited to work there to help rebuild the country. We were well looked after, accommodation and meals and pay, but the contract was that we would return home. We were not allowed German citizenship because we were not viewed as permanent residents.
I guess some of us looking back from today's perspective can be forgiven for raising an eyebrow at how easy it has been for immigrants in the last 10 years or so.

I have taught German to several A Level students who now live there. One, in her 30s now, in Dresden, told me she doesn't cut across the park near her flat after dark because she has become more and more frightened.

Aveline

Yes but why has this situation arisen? Why, in a democratic country have people voted in this way? Harping back to the 1930s doesn't cover it. What's the problem right now?

Why not look it up?

Read AfD's history, and their policies.

Aveline

Yet our government will not allow police statistics of rapes and assaults by migrants to be released.

Do you not understand why?

If you’re really interested, you can ask under freedom of information (or whatever it’s called now)

Whilst overall statistics are not (readily) available, each crime is reported in local press, it’s not being “covered up”.

Perhaps it’s because of the fear of “vigilante” action.

Action which is frequently aimed at innocent people and which is illegal.

Vile sexual crimes have also been committed by white British born men against women who are not white. Shall we ask for these stats too?

Rape is a despicable crime, as are any sexual assaults, if I was unfortunate enough to be assaulted in this way, frankly the colour of the MAN or his faith or nationality would be the last thing in my mind!

MayBee70

I don’t understand how people who support political parties that have an agenda based on attacking a certain group of people don’t realise that they could be next on the list.

If an ideology depends on maintaining the status-quo so that wealth remains in the hands of the few, then it will always need a scapegoat to protect it, because quite obviously the 'many' as a combined force could bring about a revolution.

Fortunately for Farage, there has been a ready-made scapegoat to hand for some considerable time. And saying that is not to deny that boatloads of immigrants seeking asylum is a problem.

If not them though - who? It used to be single-mothers some years ago now. Then benefit-cheats followed by those on benefits regardless. There was also a spate of attacks on disabled people who were deemed not sufficiently disabled - or in some cases, not disabled at all. Then there were mutterings from the Right about pensioners who were stealing the future from the young and who should consider or be 'requested' to do some of the unfilled jobs that the Brexit exodus left vacant - to 'earn' their pension.

So yes, I believe some might find themselves the next target group. In fact, sooner or later, it will be women - especially young women. Just do a little research into the USA Right's thinking on this and it will become obvious that women will be 'encouraged' to breed. Some of the more 'hard' Right persuasion have suggested that women be denied education beyond the 'elementary' - and even that the right to vote should be repealed. Farage as we know is an ardent Trump supporter so it's maybe not too fanciful to believe that elements of The Handmaid's Tale become a reality.

But the Left really need to get its act together, because it has glossed over concerns on transgender issues and played down the effect of immigration into neighbourhoods that are already deprived of infrastructure and funding. And yes, we know that the criminals and would-be rapists among them are a minority - but so are the trainee doctors and engineers.

I'm neither Right nor Left, in fact, I don't even know what I subscribe to - however I do believe in an equitable society, but that would require absolute honesty and transparency by our leaders and politicians, and a public that also subscribed to that ideology. We are so far removed from it though that I think we're going to have to be in the wilderness for a long period before that could even be a possibility.

I went to London last Saturday. I travelled on three tubes each way and some walking.

Tubes were busy, roads and pavements were busy.

Lots and lots of different nationalities.

I was travelling alone. I’m almost 6, with a few medical conditions and wouldn’t be able to “run”.

Not once did I feel threatened or at risk or as if I was in another country.

I have no doubt that I wouldn’t take a shortcut through a dark park, even in my twenties.

Not because of fear of foreign men, just any man.

Fear is used constantly by the likes of Farage and Lowe and Trump, it helps them to get their message across.

Men, from all walks of life, nationalities, faiths, colours, race and ages are capable of raping.

However, most men do not commit crimes of any sort, but, as a women, I am generally pretty vigilant.