This is low, even for Reform

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I agree with NF tgat the personal allowance should be raised to £20k for everyone before tax. Put some disposable income into the economy. Get people spending and having the confidence to do so. Supporting our hospitality more robustly instead of dining out on ‘a soup and a salad’.

It would be utterly amazing for the majority of us. How would it be funded though?

Reform have backtracked on this.

However the LibDems have mooted a more modest rise to £15,000. No specific details about funding it though.

Chocolatelovinggran

And, as I said Plevey, your view of Norwegian life is, of course, absolutely valid : as is mine and my family's.

I meant to get back to you yesterday.
Your view is completely valid.
I love visiting Norway. They are deeply connected to outdoor pursuits. Hiking, skiing, cycling regardless of weather. The right to roam/forage on uncultivated land. There's no bad weather, only bad clothing mantra.
I was pointing to some of the political, immigration, taxes, cost of living difficulties etc affecting a number of Norwegians and immigrants.
Foreigners looking for work can find it challenging outside of specific tech, energy & specialised sectors.
Glad to hear your family love it there, and you enjoy visiting. There is much to appreciate.

Cossy

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I agree with NF tgat the personal allowance should be raised to £20k for everyone before tax. Put some disposable income into the economy. Get people spending and having the confidence to do so. Supporting our hospitality more robustly instead of dining out on ‘a soup and a salad’.

It would be utterly amazing for the majority of us. How would it be funded though?

Reform have backtracked on this.

However the LibDems have mooted a more modest rise to £15,000. No specific details about funding it though.

It really doesn't have to be 'funded', but

a) if it is spent into the domestic economy much of it would return to the Treasury via VAT and business taxation.

b) introducing a more progressive tax regime, by, for example, amalgamating dividends with earned income (with no separate allowance for dividend income as there is now) and taxing it at the same rate as earned income, taxing capital gains at the same rate as earned income, maybe increasing corporation tax, would probably well cover the perceived shortfall in revenue. But Farage wouldn't do that, of course as it would hurt his wealthy friends and backers...

I, too, think that raising the personal allowance can only be good thing. I have seen whispers that Burnham might be considering it, too...

Not a fan of increasing corporation tax MaizieD as this would hit SME’s more than the large multinationals.

The personal allowance really does need increasing.

I would be in favour of a sliding scale of personal tax as opposed to the cliff edge from 20% to 40% to 45%.

GrannyGravy13

Not a fan of increasing corporation tax MaizieD as this would hit SME’s more than the large multinationals.

The personal allowance really does need increasing.

I would be in favour of a sliding scale of personal tax as opposed to the cliff edge from 20% to 40% to 45%.

Yes I’d go for that, as well as most of MazieD’s ideas, so long as the personal allowance was increased to at least £15,000.

I do get a tad confused re funding and no funding, if, as you say Mazie funding isn’t an issue why on earth did Tories freeze it and what’s been gained from doing so (nothing in my eyes.)

Crikey MaizieD we agree on one thing anyway!

I too, think that raising the personal allowance can only be good thing

👍

Not a fan of increasing corporation tax MaizieD as this would hit SME’s more than the large multinationals.

I think that SMEs should be treated differently from the large multinationals. They are part of the lifeblood of UK economy and have an interest in which goes beyond making profits. The large multinationals really only care about profits and keeping them out of the hands of the taxman.

I'm going to post a big report called Hostage Nation on a separate thread which you might find interesting.

Cossy

Meandrogrog

Now the idea of “vouchers” used on smartphones I like.

However, a quick question.

Let’s just concern ourselves with those on benefits who perhaps could work and are not.

So let’s pretend Mr/Mrs Smith both don’t work and have three children, Mr Smith did work, he was a scaffolder working for someone else, Mrs Smith was a dinner lady and their three children, Adele, Michelle and Belle, are all at primary school.

Mr Smith had a slight slip off the scaffolding, it was his fault, as he’d been told to stop working due to heavy rain, but he wanted to complete this days work, as tomorrow was Saturday and he planned to take his wife and children out.

They’d saved a little money, but due to Mr Smiths poor credit rating had been unable to get a mortgage, so they were renting at fairly modest three bedroom terraced house, at a high rent as it was in the South East.

Long and short of it, Mr Smith twisted something in his back and couldn’t return to work, Mrs Smith couldn’t increase her hours and worked four hours a day, term time only.

So they made a claim to universal credit.

They sold their only car as they couldn’t afford to run it and relied on public transport.

Food and rent was paid via vouchers, as was electricity, gas and water rates.

However, that was it.

No money for children’s clothes, shoes, school stuff. No money with which to budget and save for their children’s birthday and Christmas.

No money for anything else at all.

How long do you think this marriage would actually last and these people manage day to day?

Just a quick reply, .I was not advocating no money at all and do firmly believe in the welfare state to help those in need.

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Thank you for your post, I would agree with NF in preferring a Thatcherite state and free market economics, it always seems to work out best in the end and does not stifle the entrepreneurial spirit so needed to make wealth. I am no expert but that is my take on it.

Can you explain what 'wealth' these entrepreneurs are making? Where does it come from? Who benefits from it? does it add to the country's wealth in any way?

I am not going to write an essay on thatcherite economics but if you are interested in reading more on this I can recommend the Wealth of Nations to you.

Adam Smith?

I’ve read it. I am also well familiar with Thatcherite economics.

Now please tell me how entrepreneurs make wealth.

I think we all do know how a capitalist society operates, and I am sure you know much more than I.

What I am very interested in is what alternative can there be to either capitalism or communism? When I have asked this question in the past reply was there none.

I see nothing wrong with free market economics at all.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Crikey MaizieD we agree on one thing anyway!

I too, think that raising the personal allowance can only be good thing

👍

We might agree on something else, too. Reform have, at some stage and I don't know if it is still in their policy, said that we shouldn't be paying interest on the commercial banks' reserves.

Reserves are accounts held at the Bank of England through which the banks settle their interbank transactions. So, if you made a transfer of £100 from your account at bank A to, say, a relative's account at Bank B the transaction would go through both banks' reserves. Bank A's reserves would be debited with £100 and bank B's reserves would be credited with £100. Before the Global Financial Disaster commercial banks kept very little in their reserves, but the GFC made them very nervous about each others' capacity honour the transactions. What if Bank A said to Bank B that they didn't have £100 in reserves so it couldn't pay bank B. Disaster..

So the Bank of England Credited all the commercial banks' reserves with enormous amounts of money. Not only to restore mutual trust in their transactions but also because the government said that it would cover customers' deposits with the banks if it looked as though a bank were about to go bankrupt to the tune of £85,000. (It's 120,000 now) Clearly banks would need massive reserves to be able to pay all their depositors. The important point is that the Bank of England created this money by a few keystrokes on a computer keyboard; it didn't have £billions in £1 notes stashed away in its vaults. It created it out of thin air (which is, incidentally, how all regulated banks make loans). Then, because the reserve accounts are technically deposit accounts with the Bank of England, the BoE pays interest on them. It's not only given them the money, it pays interest on it. It is completely bonkers... Most central banks only pay interest on a proportion of their commercial banks' reserves. Not the whole blooming lot. It pays out about £24 billion a year in interest...

Maremia

Mean, you don't get to command how people interpret and respond to your words such as 'self inflicted'.
If I chose to elaborate/extrapolate on your pronouncements then, under GN rules, I am free to so do.
Happily, for the recipient if your description/judgement, you don't get to adjudicate on their receipt of benefits.
As to your other 'point', maybe put on your Specsaver specials, but only if you so wish.

I would like to point out that I was simply raising the possibility of vouchers for food, utilities etc with a smaller amount of monetary allowance, which I believe was discussed in the HoC. In what way am I deserving of your deeply unpleasant post? How am I being judgemental?

If you are happy to continue paying your taxes for benefit misuse by some, please carry on!

I do not actually care how offensive your comments were,
I shall continue posting what I please within the Gransnet rules.

I am sure the mods would have removed my posts anyway if they had broken the rules.

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Thank you for your post, I would agree with NF in preferring a Thatcherite state and free market economics, it always seems to work out best in the end and does not stifle the entrepreneurial spirit so needed to make wealth. I am no expert but that is my take on it.

Can you explain what 'wealth' these entrepreneurs are making? Where does it come from? Who benefits from it? does it add to the country's wealth in any way?

I am not going to write an essay on thatcherite economics but if you are interested in reading more on this I can recommend the Wealth of Nations to you.

Adam Smith?

I’ve read it. I am also well familiar with Thatcherite economics.

Now please tell me how entrepreneurs make wealth.

I think we all do know how a capitalist society operates, and I am sure you know much more than I.

What I am very interested in is what alternative can there be to either capitalism or communism? When I have asked this question in the past reply was there none.

I see nothing wrong with free market economics at all.

All I want to know is where does the 'wealth' these folk make actually come from. It has nothing to do with free markets or command economies. I am familiar with both.

Where does the money originate?

MaizieD

What I would like to know is WHY does Farage want to 'shrink the state'. What purpose would it serve?

Allegedly, to fund his tax cuts! Obviously bigly cuts for some, and don't forget, he's promised to (and since rowed back on a bit) raise the tax-free personal allowance to £20,000.

And, if you think about it, I suppose if he hives of chunks of the public services and hands them over to the private sector to manage, his coterie of like-minded backers, supporters, stand, in theory, to make a bit of dosh. Although if we have to start paying for those services, or parts of them, that were previously state-funded, could be that the £20k increase in the tax-free personal allowance won't be quite the gift it at first appears... that's if, of course, it ever happens - because he has issued 'provisos' on the matter. The allowance would be an incremental one any way, we aren't all going to suddenly become £7,430 per year richer!

But yes, in principle, consumers with less disposable income, cannot spend on the goods and services that businesses need to grow their business. And if their success is a bit of a gamble, they won't employ more people - they might even reduce the headcount.

I know we are mostly on the import side of import & export now, I just wonder how much better off we might be if it were, you know, a tad easier to export? I speak from experience. My late partner and I were running a small business; we weren't exporters ourselves, but we relied heavily on those that were. We were a very small business, but we did ultimately need to employ an extra hand. However, work started to dry up after Brexit and, because we were a 'technical advisory' - and this involved a certain amount of time-consuming paperwork - ultimately the time/reward ratio just wasn't worth it.

MaizieD

Where does the money originate?

I know where you are coming from - as they say - and will be equally interested in the response to the question.

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Thank you for your post, I would agree with NF in preferring a Thatcherite state and free market economics, it always seems to work out best in the end and does not stifle the entrepreneurial spirit so needed to make wealth. I am no expert but that is my take on it.

Can you explain what 'wealth' these entrepreneurs are making? Where does it come from? Who benefits from it? does it add to the country's wealth in any way?

I am not going to write an essay on thatcherite economics but if you are interested in reading more on this I can recommend the Wealth of Nations to you.

Adam Smith?

I’ve read it. I am also well familiar with Thatcherite economics.

Now please tell me how entrepreneurs make wealth.

I think we all do know how a capitalist society operates, and I am sure you know much more than I.

What I am very interested in is what alternative can there be to either capitalism or communism? When I have asked this question in the past reply was there none.

I see nothing wrong with free market economics at all.

All I want to know is where does the 'wealth' these folk make actually come from. It has nothing to do with free markets or command economies. I am familiar with both.

Where does the money originate?

Businesses generate wealth, its what The Apprentice and Dragons Den is all about.

Businesses generate wealth, its what The Apprentice and Dragons Den is all about.

What, out of thin air? Or do they have printing presses in their garages?

MaizieD

^Businesses generate wealth, its what The Apprentice and Dragons Den is all about.^

What, out of thin air? Or do they have printing presses in their garages?

You know they generate wealth from other people by offering services, goods etc. its how society has always worked from bartering goods to exchanging goods for money.

I am really interested in knowing your views on how the economy should be run if you feel it should be different from capitalism? Wealth has never been equal and I do wonder that those who think it should be distributed more equally are more idealistic than realistic, this is not pointed at you btw.

You know they generate wealth from other people by offering services, goods etc. its how society has always worked from bartering goods to exchanging goods for money.

The barter theory, notably promulgated by Adam Smith and repeated for generations has been proven to be wrong. It isn't at all how society has always worked. Anthropology and archaeology have dispelled that myth.

Okay, 'exchanging goods for money'. What is money and where does it come from?

MaizieD

^You know they generate wealth from other people by offering services, goods etc. its how society has always worked from bartering goods to exchanging goods for money.^

The barter theory, notably promulgated by Adam Smith and repeated for generations has been proven to be wrong. It isn't at all how society has always worked. Anthropology and archaeology have dispelled that myth.

Okay, 'exchanging goods for money'. What is money and where does it come from?

Money is a medium of exchange. It makes trading goods and services easy without bartering.
It measures and compares the value of things.
It saves purchasing power for future use.
Modern money has no intrinsic value, people trust it because governments declare it legal tender.

Money comes from central banks, commercial banks, debt creation and loan repayment.

What is your point Maisie?

So this is how that “very useful” app Reform are encouraging us to buy, is being used.

This man is a Reform councillor, who encouraged people to mount a protest against AS landing

Above worries me, as I don’t believe any serving councillor should be encouraging people to protest, it’s not their role or remit!

What I am very interested in is what alternative can there be to either capitalism or communism? When I have asked this question in the past reply was there none.

Not strictly true Meandrogrog - I gave you the example of a mixed-economy. We even had one once, back when God was a boy. It had its problems, but they were not caused by the concept of the economic model itself, more by structural flaws that were UK-specific at the time, which were low-productivity and outdated industrial infrastructure.

But it should and could work, with highly-productive - maybe tech-driven - innovation... and a skilled workforce. Oh, and collaboration between Unions and business instead of the adversarial friction that we have today.

But a skilled and 'happy' workforce needs to be rewarded for its efforts, and it also needs to be able to rely on decent healthcare, for example. If someone has to attempt the now standard 8am rush to either 'eConsult' a doctor or beg a receptionist for an appointment when he/she should be focusing on getting to work and doing their job - or wait weeks (maybe even months) for a consultant appointment for a painful or worrying condition... this is just not only not good for the individual, it doesn't help businesses to run smoothly and efficiently either. And this is where we're at since 2008. So austerity-driven Capitalism just isn't working. I can't see Farage's massive state-shrinking doing much to rectify the problem, either.

Anyway - there is an alternative, so you did get a reply!

In my humble opinion, austerity did nothing but cause many people to be poorer and huge gaps in services.

I absolutely agree what we need capitalism, should not a system which appears to favour the rich, nor at the expense of any group of people.

The reason we have a huge benefit bill is partly because the government is topping up low income earners, subsiding their rent, due to extraordinarily high private rents, in my own area a very modest three bedroom house commands a rent of around £1,800 a month, a huge chunk out of most people’s taxed income.

Given that many who claim top ups via universal credit are working for large corporations, such as supermarkets, or at low levels in public organisations such as councils or hospitals, perhaps living wages are needed far more than minimum wage.

It is entirely possible to have healthy profitable companies and Mr/Mrs Average living a decent life.

It’s possible to have good public services and good healthcare.

All the majority of people actually want is a roof over their heads, decent food, the ability to keep themselves well, fit and healthy and to do the same for their families.

Most people are prepared to do a good days work, for a fair days pay.

Fraud and error within welfare in the UK really isn’t that high.

My question, one I’ve asked a lot, though maybe not here, is this;

Does anyone really need to be a billionaire?

I have zero issue with someone, any one, working hard, doing well, choosing how and when they spend their hard earned and well deserved cash.

However, for example two huge donations of £76,000,000 to squander on buying your way into power, is, in my view, pretty immoral.

As has been mentioned, almost all Reform councillors could do with a bit of support and extra training.

The people living in Pier Ward and Jaywick could certainly do with better accommodation.

The entire rhetoric of Reform totally sickens me, it’s nothing to do with their plans for our economy, it’s to do with their utter lack of humanity, lack of honestly and their exploitation of their own supporters.

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

You know they generate wealth from other people by offering services, goods etc. its how society has always worked from bartering goods to exchanging goods for money.

The barter theory, notably promulgated by Adam Smith and repeated for generations has been proven to be wrong. It isn't at all how society has always worked. Anthropology and archaeology have dispelled that myth.

Okay, 'exchanging goods for money'. What is money and where does it come from?

Money is a medium of exchange. It makes trading goods and services easy without bartering.
It measures and compares the value of things.
It saves purchasing power for future use.
Modern money has no intrinsic value, people trust it because governments declare it legal tender.

Money comes from central banks, commercial banks, debt creation and loan repayment.

What is your point Maisie?

My point is that entrepreneurs don't create wealth. Commercial banks can create money through loans but it doesn't stay in the economy for ever because it has to be repaid with interest. The interest removes additional money from the economy.

So that leaves central banks. Who has the say over central bank money creation?

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

You know they generate wealth from other people by offering services, goods etc. its how society has always worked from bartering goods to exchanging goods for money.

The barter theory, notably promulgated by Adam Smith and repeated for generations has been proven to be wrong. It isn't at all how society has always worked. Anthropology and archaeology have dispelled that myth.

Okay, 'exchanging goods for money'. What is money and where does it come from?

Money is a medium of exchange. It makes trading goods and services easy without bartering.
It measures and compares the value of things.
It saves purchasing power for future use.
Modern money has no intrinsic value, people trust it because governments declare it legal tender.

Money comes from central banks, commercial banks, debt creation and loan repayment.

What is your point Maisie?

My point is that entrepreneurs don't create wealth. Commercial banks can create money through loans but it doesn't stay in the economy for ever because it has to be repaid with interest. The interest removes additional money from the economy.

So that leaves central banks. Who has the say over central bank money creation?

According to google AI

Yes entrepreneurs create substantial wealth for a country by turning raw ideas, labour and capital into productive new goods, services and economic value.

This is by job creation, resource optimization, innovation, tax expansion and market expansion.