This is low, even for Reform

The only person I know, in our family, who is proud of his passport, is my DH, he has an Irish passport! Just an Irish passport.

I feel the same way as MazieD about my own British Passport. 😢😢😢

I too have lived in Norway. Wages are high, taxes are heavy. It has a challenging geography and agricultural protectionism.
Norway is richer than the UK per capita as it has saved it's North Sea oil and gas revenues in a massive sovereign wealth. UK used it's oil windfalls to fund short-term public spending and to keep taxes low.
Groceries, eating out, alcohol is the most expensive in the world.
Income tax rates can reach 47 percent. It finds an extensive welfare state. And yet there are humanitarian issues...there is discrimination and poor access to medical care eg drug addiction.
It depends heavily on immigrant labour. Many Eastern Europeans are employed cheaply during the summer, by homeowners as long as they give them an old barn to sleep in. Too costly to employ locals.
They have a labour shortage and Immigrants are brought in to support key public services and to drive population growth.
Rent and properties are very high Households carry large debt.
They struggle to create a green economy as it relies heavily on oil and gas for state funds and jobs.
Some with greater wealth are moving to Switzerland to avoid huge wealth taxes.
So swings and roundabouts.
My Norwegian friend updates me regularly.

Plevey, I have family living in Norway.
I don't recognise the Norway that you describe.

Chocolatelovinggran

Plevey, I have family living in Norway.
I don't recognise the Norway that you describe.

What exactly are you saying?

Surely, having lived and worked in Norway, Plevey will have considerable knowledge and understanding about their economics and economy?

Maybe it was a while ago, and things have changed?

However, this does seem implausible since Plevey keeps in contact with friends there.

Things have certainly changed here, pre Brexit, for years, we shipped in resource during harvest from Europe.

I know little about Norway, but AI tells me this;

AI

“Norway’s advanced mixed economy relies heavily on a highly regulated welfare system, strong natural resource exports (oil, gas, and seafood), and a steadily expanding population driven by immigration.

The country features a total population of 5.66 million, with over 20% consisting of immigrants or Norwegian-born children of immigrants.

Temporary and seasonal migrant workers act as a vital human resource, filling crucial gaps in the labor market but also intersecting sharply with Norway’s notoriously high cost of living

Macroeconomic Indicators & Cost of Living,

Norway provides an exceptionally high standard of living, balanced by steep consumer pricing.

Economic IndicatorValue / Estimate (2025–2026)Gross Domestic Product (GDP)~$599.4 Billion (Nominal) / ~$585 Billion (PPP)GDP per Capita~$105,877 (Nominal) / ~$102,596 (PPP)Annual GDP Growth Rate1.5%Inflation Rate (CPI Change)~3.3%

While high average domestic wages help cushion the local population against high prices, the cost of living remains a significant shock for temporary newcomers:

Housing & Rental Pressures: A highly restricted and expensive rental market. Unlike the 90% of native citizens who own homes, approximately 38% to 43% of immigrants must rent.

Groceries: Heavily taxed and largely imported.

An individual's monthly grocery budget typically averages 3,000 to 5,000 NOK ($300–$500 USD)

The Resource Role of Temporary MigrantsNorway brings in thousands of temporary and seasonal workers annually—primarily from the EU/EEA (such as Poland and Lithuania) and humanitarian entry points.

Labor Market Flexibility:

Temporary staffing provides a highly mobile workforce for seasonal sectors like agriculture, fishing, construction, and tourism. This resource insulates the core Norwegian workforce from industrial fluctuations.

Sectors of Disproportionate Employment:

According to OECD International Migration Reports, migrant labor is heavily utilized in lower-paying firms and health services (such as nursing and seasonal elderly care).3. Economic and Societal Challenges

The influx of temporary and short-term migration creates a distinct economic paradox within the Norwegian welfare model:

Welfare Sustainability & Fiscal Gap:

Long-term economic projections by Statistics Norway (SSB) indicate that while immigration helps correct an aging workforce demographic, lower labor-market integration over time can strain public finances.

Immigrant reliance on state social assistance payouts has systematically risen over the past decade.

Precarious Employment & Living Standards:

Short-term workers frequently lean on temporary staffing agencies, making them vulnerable during downturns. This has inadvertently established a sub-tier labor ecosystem.

Furthermore, those reliant on employer-provided housing often face overcrowded or suboptimal living conditions.”

Cossy, my family have lived and worked in Norway for more than twelve years. They are Norwegian citizens, and I have Norwegian born GC. I have visited regularly over those years, and returned just two weeks ago from my most recent stay.
I did not say that Plevey was not entitled to her view. I said that I did not share her understanding of the culture.

Chocolatelovinggran...yes I have lived there, some years ago, and I have a Norwegian SIL with family, who owns property with land, her daughter and 2 grandchildren and her extensive family who have lived there all their lives.
They have strong co butnnections, work life in politics, education , health are and social care

Chocolatelovinggran

Cossy, my family have lived and worked in Norway for more than twelve years. They are Norwegian citizens, and I have Norwegian born GC. I have visited regularly over those years, and returned just two weeks ago from my most recent stay.
I did not say that Plevey was not entitled to her view. I said that I did not share her understanding of the culture.

Fair enough.

Norway and/or other Scandinavian countries, look geographically very beautiful and it’s on our bucket list to maybe do a Fjord Cruise.

Health care is still a benefit, Mean. At least until Reform gets into power.
You implied that people in self inflicted situations should not receive benefts.
Are you getting a bit rattled, because Posters are effectively batting away your 'points'?
Is that why you have resorted to attempting insults?
May I politely point out that a carefully thought out counter argument is more productive.

And, as I said Plevey, your view of Norwegian life is, of course, absolutely valid : as is mine and my family's.

Cossy

Meandrogrog 10:37

Firstly, sincere apologies, my intention was certainly not to “accuse” you nor to “congratulate” myself.

I’ve been in quite an unusual situation work wise, where I have been fortunate enough to work within the private sector within the Insurance and Banking Sectors, mainly within people or project management, though I did start off in low level IT, (or data processing as it was then called), then having a second family, late in life, took local jobs, to be near my children, hence entering the civil service at 50 years old.

I’ve worked in this country and abroad and have been fortunate enough to acquire lots of experience/knowledge in many different sectors.

However, as you can imagine, this didn’t make me a fortune in income.

However, I was brought up in a very privileged middle class family, where my father spent much of his working life travelling and working abroad and I’m afraid as his only child, despite not being my biological father, (married my widowed mother when I was 6, and immediately adopted me), he rather indulged me.

I’ve never cared much about money or possessions, though my parents instilled their very strong work ethic, but alas (for them) not their politics. Very strong conservatives. However, like many others on here I started paid work at 13. I didn’t “need” the extra cash, but was encouraged by my parents to “earn” my pocket money (which my DF matched) and to save (ooops, failed here).

So if I come across as having strong opinions and passion for fellow humans, I make no apology for this, though I fully respect others views and opinions, I sometimes fail to fully understand them.

I’m afraid your comment re your relative’s mental health issues, being “self-inflicted” sadly did come across as lacking in empathy, however unintentional it was. That’s the issue with the written word from strangers.

Your comments, like many others, around claiming benefits, are sometimes showing just part of the full picture.

As stated several times, Universal Credit is an amalgamation of several legacy benefits, which was introduced to be paid monthly (to assist in claimants learning to budget), it incorporates both the old “tax credit” system and housing benefits.

Therefore approximately 50% of those in receipt of this benefit are actually in work, many of whom are in full time, low paid jobs, like Teaching Assistants, Nursery School Assistants, Care Workers, etc etc. even those on the two lowest levels within the Civil Service are eligible for top up if they have high private rents and children.

I understand your position re “vouchers”, in theory a great idea, in practise a terrible idea.

I remember only too well the humiliation attached to “free school meals”.

Why on earth would anyone want to see people humiliated in supermarkets etc, and vouchers could not possibly cover everything, can you imagine the admin costs involved?

Universal Credit is claimed by Working people, people working part time and full time, it’s also claimed by those out of work who cannot work, for example those with severe learning difficulties, those who are severely disabled, those who have progressive medical who might have worked but now no longer can, for example having MS, MND, etc, addicts, prison leavers, veterans, then those who are temporarily out of work, finally the groups who really should be targeted and very quickly, those aged between 18-26, never working, not in education, not in training, then the long term unemployed who still can work and do have transferable skills and those from third generation benefit claimants.

It’s so easy to be “sucked” in by various media who paint an entirely flawed and skewed vision of those people claiming Universal Claimant and this satisfies some people who just look at the numbers and the costs, but not the people.

I can completely understand your frustration with our two party government systems and both Labour and Conservatives failings. What I cannot even begin to comprehend is why you would be so drawn towards Reform.

Reform’s “ideas” and “ideals” couldn’t be further from my own moral compass if they tried and I’m really only just left of centre.

Each to his or her own, but I’d rather chop my own arm off than vote for a party which has succeeded in causing such division in our country and, like it or not, have “encouraged” groups like Patriot Platform and The Pink Ladies not only to form, but to have very loud and extremely aggressive voices.

It’s not just Asylum Seekers who cause issues in our country.

Hi Cossy, many thanks for your informative post, its good to hear other peoples backgrounds and life experiences.

I fully agree about not humiliating voucher holders in supermarkets etc but with smartphones they could be uploaded so the user could use them like a credit card with none the wiser. Apparently these measures were debated in the HoC so some must presumably think the same as me.

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Meandrogrog

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And you would disenfranchise the 3 million who don't?

Of course, it is Reform's plan to disenfranchise up to 10 million people voters anyway.

If they want to vote they should get a smartphone or maybe public libraries would have snartphones they could use. There are ways round everything.

I am increasingly finding certain posters being accusatory. Most of the right wing posters have stopped posting on N&P threads now so it just becomes an echo chamber for Labour supporters.

Ordinary single-year Parliamentary sessions record anywhere from 100 to over 300 divisions. In the 2024-26 session there were 515 divisions in the Commons. Do you really think an electorate of over 48 million people is going to participate in that?

I haven’t accused you of anything.

I would appreciate if you would stop these allegations about who is or isn’t posting here. You don’t control who does or doesn’t post and neither does anybody else. People are free to participate and can chose whether or not to do so. I see plenty of voices on either sides of the centre divide.

Nor do you know who I vote for.

Please could you be explicit about the alleged allegations that I am making.

I generally find posters cannot actually do this when I have requested it.

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Meandrogrog

friendlygingercat

Its time we moved from the clumsy and outdated system of "Parliamentary Democracy" to a system known as Direct Democracy where every British born and naturalised British adult was allowed to vote via their smart phones on every law. The job of parliament would be to propose laws but not to pass them. That would be the responsibility of the citizens as a whole. They have a very modified version of this in Switzerland. We have the technology to do this.

If we had this 60 years ago the large ethnic groups allowed into this country and unfortunately gifted with equal citizenship would only have been allowed in as "guest workers" unless they stayed long enough and worked hard enough to take on British citizenship.

That is such a good idea but do you think we woild be allowed anywhere near being allowed a vote? Look what happened re Brexit! Best decision ever but boy it didnt go the way the PM wanted. Its what comes of allowing the peasants a voice!

What do you mean by 'it didn't go the way the PM wanted'? WE left the EU, didn't we? That was all that on the voting paper.

I realise that lots of Leave voters had dreams of chucking out all the brown people in the UK but I'm afraid that was not on the ballot paper...

My leave vote was nothing to do with brown people, I simply felt it better for the UK. I still would vote the same way now, I feel so proud of my British passport.

I didn't say that your vote had anything to do with brown people, but from seeing a great many reactions on social media it's apparent that some people's votes did.

However, what I was really interested in was why you said that 'it didn't go the way the PM wanted'. Were you referring to Cameron or to Johnson? I assumed Johnson, but on reflection it was probably Cameron.

My British passport annoys me intensely. It speaks to me of a diminished and divided nation.

Yes, Cameron.

Boris wanted to leave the EU so obviously not him!

Its really such a shame you feel the way you do about the UK, instead chasing some EU fantasy that doesnt exist.
Do you really not feel proud of our great country?

Maremia

Health care is still a benefit, Mean. At least until Reform gets into power.
You implied that people in self inflicted situations should not receive benefts.
Are you getting a bit rattled, because Posters are effectively batting away your 'points'?
Is that why you have resorted to attempting insults?
May I politely point out that a carefully thought out counter argument is more productive.

You know full well I did not mean healthcare, classic example of twisting posts!

You bat away all you like, I am fully capable of standing up for what I believe in.

Please could you point out my insults? Every time I request this I cannot get an answer.

Meandrogrog

Take this in the spirit it's meant - I'm not being combative, as I appreciate you were not being, either. I am challenging your assumptions, yes - but not in an antagonistic way.

My interest is in an equitable and egalitarian society too. I am interested in your thoughts as to how to achieve this, given that it is not fair to simply take from the wealthy in a wealth distributing fashion reminiscent of communism.

Let's forget about Communism - because I don't think many people are advocating for it, and definitely not on here. Communist regimes, historically, created a new socio-economic elite anyway... high-ranking party officials, etc, secured for themselves vast privileges and luxury lifestyles!

You say you're willing to give Reform a chance because you also want a more equitable and egalitarian society.

Farage's core economic principles are neo liberal, he's a 'market man', a 'Thatcherite'. But he does differ somewhat from the accepted, strict, free-market economic theory (that's why I've called him a 'hybrid') - because he occasionally aligns himself with anti-corporate rhetoric; he's criticised the 'big-bank' fraternity, and opposed measures like the 2-child benefit cap, and cuts to the winter fuel allowance. So I can see the appeal.

However, his plan to cut taxes through an £80 billion package of state spending cuts over a 5 year period - £50 billion of that directly from the overall benefits bill - does, surely, give you some cause for concern? Especially as pensions are also regarded as a benefit.

If our public services and infrastructure are struggling already because of past cuts - how will they, and it, function if he makes these unprecedented cuts? I mean, just how much support will there be for anyone who finds themselves in the position of needing it?

The consensus of independent analysis is that finding the ultimate £80 billion from these cuts is mathematically unrealistic and that cuts of this magnitude would inevitably require a substantial reduction in either the quantity or the quality of frontline public services.

How do you think ordinary people, the 'red-wall' voters, the average 'man in the street' - the very voters Farage is attempting to align himself with, would benefit from this?

Meandrogrog

Now the idea of “vouchers” used on smartphones I like.

However, a quick question.

Let’s just concern ourselves with those on benefits who perhaps could work and are not.

So let’s pretend Mr/Mrs Smith both don’t work and have three children, Mr Smith did work, he was a scaffolder working for someone else, Mrs Smith was a dinner lady and their three children, Adele, Michelle and Belle, are all at primary school.

Mr Smith had a slight slip off the scaffolding, it was his fault, as he’d been told to stop working due to heavy rain, but he wanted to complete this days work, as tomorrow was Saturday and he planned to take his wife and children out.

They’d saved a little money, but due to Mr Smiths poor credit rating had been unable to get a mortgage, so they were renting at fairly modest three bedroom terraced house, at a high rent as it was in the South East.

Long and short of it, Mr Smith twisted something in his back and couldn’t return to work, Mrs Smith couldn’t increase her hours and worked four hours a day, term time only.

So they made a claim to universal credit.

They sold their only car as they couldn’t afford to run it and relied on public transport.

Food and rent was paid via vouchers, as was electricity, gas and water rates.

However, that was it.

No money for children’s clothes, shoes, school stuff. No money with which to budget and save for their children’s birthday and Christmas.

No money for anything else at all.

How long do you think this marriage would actually last and these people manage day to day?

Dickens

Meandrogrog

Take this in the spirit it's meant - I'm not being combative, as I appreciate you were not being, either. I am challenging your assumptions, yes - but not in an antagonistic way.

My interest is in an equitable and egalitarian society too. I am interested in your thoughts as to how to achieve this, given that it is not fair to simply take from the wealthy in a wealth distributing fashion reminiscent of communism.

Let's forget about Communism - because I don't think many people are advocating for it, and definitely not on here. Communist regimes, historically, created a new socio-economic elite anyway... high-ranking party officials, etc, secured for themselves vast privileges and luxury lifestyles!

You say you're willing to give Reform a chance because you also want a more equitable and egalitarian society.

Farage's core economic principles are neo liberal, he's a 'market man', a 'Thatcherite'. But he does differ somewhat from the accepted, strict, free-market economic theory (that's why I've called him a 'hybrid') - because he occasionally aligns himself with anti-corporate rhetoric; he's criticised the 'big-bank' fraternity, and opposed measures like the 2-child benefit cap, and cuts to the winter fuel allowance. So I can see the appeal.

However, his plan to cut taxes through an £80 billion package of state spending cuts over a 5 year period - £50 billion of that directly from the overall benefits bill - does, surely, give you some cause for concern? Especially as pensions are also regarded as a benefit.

If our public services and infrastructure are struggling already because of past cuts - how will they, and it, function if he makes these unprecedented cuts? I mean, just how much support will there be for anyone who finds themselves in the position of needing it?

The consensus of independent analysis is that finding the ultimate £80 billion from these cuts is mathematically unrealistic and that cuts of this magnitude would inevitably require a substantial reduction in either the quantity or the quality of frontline public services.

How do you think ordinary people, the 'red-wall' voters, the average 'man in the street' - the very voters Farage is attempting to align himself with, would benefit from this?

Thank you for your post, I would agree with NF in preferring a Thatcherite state and free market economics, it always seems to work out best in the end and does not stifle the entrepreneurial spirit so needed to make wealth. I am no expert but that is my take on it.

The state pension is called a benefit but it is not in the same category as universal credit as we are all well aware.

I am in favour of supporting those in need and willingly pay taxes to help those. The thought of going back to humiliating the poor and needy and judging them is horrible.

I do feel that Reform politicians, of whom there are some very experienced people, are capable of making sensible decisions, and its not a bad plan to try to cut back on state spending. I cannot try to second guess what Reform will achieve and how it will affect the man or woman in the street, but it all sounds sensible to me.

Thank you for your post, I would agree with NF in preferring a Thatcherite state and free market economics, it always seems to work out best in the end and does not stifle the entrepreneurial spirit so needed to make wealth. I am no expert but that is my take on it.

Can you explain what 'wealth' these entrepreneurs are making? Where does it come from? Who benefits from it? does it add to the country's wealth in any way?

I agree with NF tgat the personal allowance should be raised to £20k for everyone before tax. Put some disposable income into the economy. Get people spending and having the confidence to do so. Supporting our hospitality more robustly instead of dining out on ‘a soup and a salad’.

MaizieD

^Thank you for your post, I would agree with NF in preferring a Thatcherite state and free market economics, it always seems to work out best in the end and does not stifle the entrepreneurial spirit so needed to make wealth. I am no expert but that is my take on it.^

Can you explain what 'wealth' these entrepreneurs are making? Where does it come from? Who benefits from it? does it add to the country's wealth in any way?

I am not going to write an essay on thatcherite economics but if you are interested in reading more on this I can recommend the Wealth of Nations to you.

Meandrogrog

MaizieD

Thank you for your post, I would agree with NF in preferring a Thatcherite state and free market economics, it always seems to work out best in the end and does not stifle the entrepreneurial spirit so needed to make wealth. I am no expert but that is my take on it.

Can you explain what 'wealth' these entrepreneurs are making? Where does it come from? Who benefits from it? does it add to the country's wealth in any way?

I am not going to write an essay on thatcherite economics but if you are interested in reading more on this I can recommend the Wealth of Nations to you.

Adam Smith?

I’ve read it. I am also well familiar with Thatcherite economics.

Now please tell me how entrepreneurs make wealth.

Mean, you don't get to command how people interpret and respond to your words such as 'self inflicted'.
If I chose to elaborate/extrapolate on your pronouncements then, under GN rules, I am free to so do.
Happily, for the recipient if your description/judgement, you don't get to adjudicate on their receipt of benefits.
As to your other 'point', maybe put on your Specsaver specials, but only if you so wish.

'This is low, even for Reform' says the OP.

What about this article from The Guardian, describing how a think-tank linked to Reform UK has called for the abolition of the state pension?

Maremia

'This is low, even for Reform' says the OP.

What about this article from The Guardian, describing how a think-tank linked to Reform UK has called for the abolition of the state pension?

Haven't read the article in the G - but a Reform-linked think-tank suggesting the abolition of the state pension does not come as a surprise.

In spite of Meandrogrog's statement that pensions - as a 'benefit' - are not in the same category as Universal Credit, I don't think a Reform party under Farage would feel obliged to make this distinction.

If he is keen to abolish the NHS as a tax-payer funded service and replace it with an insurance-based 'French style' one, then having secured a mandate from voters - I'm pretty sure he'd want to similarly do the same with the state-funded pension.

His whole raison d'être is to shrink the state - by, allegedly, £80 billion in five years - and that 'shrinkage' will almost certainly include the state pension. Logically - based on Farage's ideology - why would it not.

Of course, those of his supporters who are in receipt of generous private pensions and can well afford the loss will hardly bat an eyelid. But I do wonder how many of his current supporters - including the red-wall 'dissidents' and the assorted 'left-behind' individuals who feel betrayed by both Tory and Labour governments - are actually in that position?

His whole raison d'être is to shrink the state - by, allegedly, £80 billion in five years - and that 'shrinkage' will almost certainly include the state pension. Logically - based on Farage's ideology - why would it not.

What I would like to know is WHY does Farage want to 'shrink the state'. What purpose would it serve?

Thatcher wanted to 'shrink the state' and by some dreadful quirk of fate (or that dreadfully untrue statement she made about 'there is no such thing as public money') this desire has become some sort of malevolent economic orthodoxy, with the results we have today; crumbling infrastructure, public services cut to the bone, dire work and wages prospects for the young, so many people struggling to keep their heads above the financial water and almost 20% living below the poverty line, to name just a few of the results of 'shrinking the state over nearly five decades.

What Thatcher, and it seems, subsequent PMs, failed completely to understand is that it is the state which is the source of our money, whether it be issued by actual printing or by electronic transfer. Forget about earnings from foreign trade, we import far more than we export, so no revenue there. Banks, under licence from the government, issue new money when they make loans, but they get it all back, plus interest, so, while the loan money promotes economic activity when it is being used, it doesn't add to the citizens' stock of available money for spending, in fact the interest takes money away from it. The state issues money by spending and removes only part of what it has issued by taxation. When the state reduces its spending businesses fail because they lose state contracts and people lose their jobs, so have less money available to spend. It is consumer and business spending which causes growth in the economy, restricting state spending restricts growth.

So Farage's 'shrink the state' is complete economic nonsense (as was Thatcher's). Even more 'austerity. We've suffered enough of that already.