grammar question

I'm sure I could still say 'buTTer' without my front teeth, but I know what you mean, acanthus

Yep - tried it without the teeth and the 'tt' is still there! The tongue merely strikes the back of the gum instead of the teeth...

But did you spit Feetle?

The glottal stop is an integral part of the Norfolk accent. We dornt orl speek posh all on the toime yer know. Thar's graama an torkin proper so as them thar incomers can join in an' understand wot we're a goin on abou' an' then there's that wot git's spoke atome!

Haitch isn't just dialect, it's also never having seen it written down. Irritates me a bit, but not half as much as hearing 'different than' �� instead of 'different from'.
I commented on 'bored of doing that' being wrong to my DGD but she just said it's only like saying 'fed up of doing that' and you say that Grandma.��

Who owns the rules for pronunciation? Who is to say how certain words or letters should be pronounced? Grammar is one thing and pronunciation is something else altogether. I don't like certain accents and dialects but I fully accept that that is how people from that area speak and I have no right to tell them that they should speak my way and not theirs.

hear hear jane10 - and I'd had regional grammar to the list too. One old friend in Leics always switches the 'you was' and 'I were' - and other similar 'mistakes' and for me it makes language so much the better for it.

Local accents are disappearing so fast- where on live on the French border, the accent on either side was really strongly marked in my generation, but now you just can't hear the difference with the kids- they all sound the same. Not sure that is progress. Having said that, I can still speak 2 kinds of French, the local and the 'normal' (whatever that is!)... and same in English. I do not speak the same to my Surrey sil and bil as I do to some of my Leics friends. Most of us change the tone and register depending on 'audience' - especially if we have a huge mixture of friends and family from very different backgrounds/areas.

Mind you the first time I heard the 'I were stood standing there' ... I was a bit puzzled re grammar, lol.

So often one hears or reads in the media "different to". I am prompted to shout out the chant I remember from school - SIMILAR TO, DIFFERENT FROM.

Ana yes you are correct...should read we swam in that lake and have swum go together.

Sorry TriciaF for misinforming you.

What do they say in the USA/Australia?

Language changes all the time and what we considered incorrect quickly becomes accepted as the right form. It annoys me too but as a writer I've learned to go with the flow and can even bring myself to put a comma before an and which I was taught in my childhood was wrong and unnecessary.

granjura - why do you feel the need to change your accent and speech patterns when you are with different types of people? I think we should be true to ourselves and stick to the accents we have been born and brought up with, whether they are ultra posh, received pronunciation or broad regional.

Just look at Mrs Bouquet! She adopted a highly irritating "posh" voice to impress others, but few were taken in. We just laughed at the poor woman, because her accent was terrifyingly affected.

I hope I haven't offended you, granjura, but in my experience it is better to stick to one's own use of the English language (in speech as well as on the written page) than to change it in order to feel you are "fitting in" with other people.

No offense at all, it is an excellent question. My parents had a very flat accent and were considered 'posh' here in my mountains. As a kid, I loved to pick up the local accent, expression and words- but soon learnt that they were not welcome at home. Nothing to do with 'not being myself' at all- just accepting that some situations required different types of speech, and behaviour in general.

And then in the UK I lived and worked in London with people who had RP- and adopted same naturally (although my 'haitches' did let me down somewhat- which they all found funny). Then we moved to the Potteries, and in my new job all the staff, both white collar and shop-floor, had a strong Staffs accent- even my boss the MD- and I soon picked up the local accent at work and expressions. I have a very good ear for languages, and loved it. But back home with OH, family and friends, RP took over again. Then we moved to Leics, and same thing happened. I then went to Uni to become a Mod Langs teacher- and it was clear that to teach I had to use standard French (had to change the way I count, and many words too) and accent. An English teacher here, from, say, North Yorkshire, would do the same, quite naturally. But when we visited my parents, friends and family here, i switched back. Same me, same person- but it is just natural to do so.

In the UK, and here, we have a friends and family from vastly different background- I am no chameleon, but it is natural to adjust a little, at times a bit more. They have hugely different political views and life experiences too- which can be hard at times, but makes life so so interesting.

About Mrs Bucket- yes, it was hilarious- and that is the key, adapt a bit, but not too much- either way- or it sounds either ridiculous or condescending. It I started saying 'I was stood standing there right with me boooouk' it would be daft.

BTW where are you from Jack? Have you ever read Melwynn Bragg's book about the English Language, where he describes how he just had to lose his strong Lancashire (I think...) accent when he went to Uni. In his case, sad that he lost it altogether- much better, for me at least, to be able to dip in and aout of both. It has certainly made coming back living in my mountains after 40 years in UK, much easier with the 'locals' - who like to hear I have not lost my roots.

As a southerner, I pronounce 'put' and 'but' differently. I've lived in Yorkshire and remember asking for 'butter' in the village shop. To a Yorkshire ear, my pronunciation sounds like the mixture you make pancakes with - batter. I learnt to make the first syllable rhyme with 'put'. So difficult for non-English speakers learning the language.

In case that sounds patronising, I did have two children at school in the village, and we all gradually modified our pronunciation albeit in their case unconsciously, so that when we went back to living near London, I think we sounded as if we'd been born in Yorkshire! You feel a need to blend in. It's not just the way words are pronounced, it's the ups and downs that make the difference. (We have strayed from 'swim swam swum' haven't we?)

Here's a problem I have as a retired English teacher. My ds is married to a local girl with a very strong accent and dialect. My DIL said to me this morning 'I've just lent £20 off me mam so I've went to the shops with the bairns to buy summick for wor tea.'
Of course I wouldn't dream of commenting to her but sometimes the children's grammar really grates (they speak as she does) and I correct them, out of earshot of their mum.
Is it OK to correct them do you think or am I just being a snob? Will their dialect be a problem in later life or doesn't it matter any more?

No don't correct her! Many of the British accents and dialects are disappearing, which is a shame as they're part of our (I was going to say rich cultural heritage but that's a bit of a cliché.) She seems a bit Geordie? I used to speak like that, out of my Mum's hearing.
And dialects contain many deviations from correct grammar, but that's part of their charm.
There was an article in last week's Sunday Times about even part of the
Scottish accent disappearing ie the "r" in the middle of words like farm and sort.

Just keep talking to your DGCs and occasionally pointing things out but don't make a big thing about it. If you do too much you might get a bit of backlash as they get older. On the other hand it is useful to be able to drop your accent if the situation warrants it. Children pick things up anyway so your influence will be there. I imagine they are now quite young and mum is their main carer, so she will be more dominant, your son probably speaks like you anyway so they will get that. Dialect is OK but it sometimes leads to judgements about intelligence/education which are very negative.

We need to be bi-lingual. Dialect and English. Grammer is for reading, writing and English when it's needed to talk to 'proper' to 'foreigners'.

claireseptember, that is not an easy situation- but you have to tread carefully- ouch. NfkDumpling is right, a local accent and local grammatical structures are fine- as long as the children learn the difference, and what is appropriate and accepted in different situations. Many kids do badly in interviews for instance, because they don't know how to modulate 'street speech' into more formal speech.

As a Southerner living in Scotland in the 60s, I was intrigued by their use of words different from mine,e.g, when I asked for a mince pie, I was given a meat pie. When I explained, I was told,"That's a Christmas pie". Loved learning the terms but hated the attitude,"I'm right, you're wrong"-it's called English, the clue is in the name!

I've always liked the Scots use of 'outwith' for our 'outside' - don't know why, just has a more gentle sound I suppose!

Your comments on "sat" and "sitting" reminded me of something my mother used to say to me. "If you're just sat sitting I can soon find you something to do" (She was very much of the "idle hands" school )