grammar question

thanks jack- there is a big difference between 'aping' in a condescending way- and adapting naturally if you go and live somewhere long term. Have you evere lived, say, North of Watford? I am a linguist, and I just can't help it- I absorb language, expressions, intonations, like a sponge. OH is from Surrey and like you, has RP pronunciation and never alters his speech- despite living in several locations in the Midlands. Partly due to personality perhaps. When I speak local French, I am not aping- this is the way I learnt to speak, with friends- even though I spoke a different kind of French at home.

I do wonder how mixed your family and friends are - as said, for all sorts of reasons- our friends are VERY mixed in background and education (although as said, OH's English never changes from RP- but he is a scientist, and until he met me, his friends and family were very homogeneous and all spoke with RP.

Thank you, granjura, for being so gracious in your reply to my comments about switching accents according to one's environment. I still maintain that it is not necessary to alter one's accent just to please people with a dialect, local accent or merely a sloppy accent.

You ask where I am from. I am from the south of England and speak what used to be called the Queen's English. This does not make me a snob. But what would make me a snob would be a miserable attempt at aping those with different accents from mine (e.g. a Cockney cabbie, a Yorkshire lass, a Dorset farmhand etc.).

As for correcting grandchildren, I think it's fine to help them with grammar, spelling and pronunciation. I've been doing this for years and the children never take offence. Indeed, they would be surprised if I didn't give them a few words of grandmotherly advice every now and then, and their mother (our daughter) doesn't mind a bit.

'Didn't used to' on R4 half an hour ago, Winifred Robinson. What happened to 'used not to'? I was almost as irritated by that as by the smug CEO she was interviewing eulogising his bottled water ...

Ans

I think aitch should, in fact, be spelled haitch and aspirate when pronounced. I wonder why we don't? Is there a word for all our alphabet letters? Come to think of it I can only think of that letter. Would we refer to the letter bee, or kay? I know the Greek alphabet has words for its letters but if one exists in English I haven't seen it.
Mummsmags I don't know where you live but in the South east it is definitely scon, so you'd be correct round here. I call it scone with a long o, and I think that's down to my Irish mother,s influence. Nobody has so far pulled me up though!

Sorry to nitpick, but there is actually an H in 'aitch'!

Pronunciation imo should be consistent.....if you say 'haitch' when the spelling of the letter H is 'aitch' then you should also (logically) say - for example - bacon and heggs or happles and horanges. If there is no H in the spelling, why would you add one? Check the dictionary, there really is not an aitch in H. I think it is confusing because that's the sound it makes, in English.
Bath buns and Chelsea - irritating when mixed up but delicious on their own or together! Never understood the diff between pikelets and crumpets. I have always said 'skonn' as opposed to 'skohn' but have been pulled up for being 'common' more times than I can remember so I'm prob not snobby! We just get used to saying things a certain way in different parts of the country. Silent or unpronounced letters (Warwick, Gloucester etc) are accepted as part and parcel of English but adding letters in where they do not exist is incorrect.

I love Bath buns, I have made both. I think the shops that sell them are to blame, they often get it wrong. I know they did when they used to write their own signs on the display stands.

Elegran - you are definitely correct about Chelsea and Bath buns. I have eaten both in my time and as I live in the W. Country I know a Bath bun when I see it.

In my part of the world we call a crumpet a pikelet. I don't personally call them pikelets because I originally come from Dorset where they are called a crumpet but I'm sure they are the same thing.

I had a photo from my American cousin showing what she thought was a typical English tea. The tea cosy was correct but the cakes on the cake stand which she described as crumpets were definitely scones.

I know I am right - I have made enough of the damned things - but it is good that you agree.

According to this site you are right about Chelsea buns, Elegran.

Ah it's the important difference between crumpets and pikelets that really matters.

Where does everyone stand on Chelsea buns and Bath buns? A friend insisted to me that I was wrong in calling the rolled-up ones with fruit in them Chelsea buns and the ones with little sugar-lumps on top Bath buns. She thought they should be the other way round. "That's what we call them up here," she said. I lived a lot closer to Chelsea (and Bath) than she ever had, so I think I was right.

"London English" was only one variety of English. It became the standard version as the South-East became more and more dominant, and particularly as communications improved. The regional variations are closer to the original language.

"Outwith" is the opposite of "within".

Mince pies (the fruity ones) were meat pies at one time. The spices and fruit were added to make them festive for Christmas, and later the meat was left out.

Gran5up, you make the point that the language is English, but just think about how many people worldwide speak it as their mother tongue.I'm not surprised people in Scotland think of mince pies as meat pies and that they use different words from those outside Scotland to describe things. Australians, Americans, as we know use different words - sidewalk, elevator to name two from the U.S. Condensing the geography somewhat, people in the North have their local words for things as indeed do the Welsh, Cornish and so on. And thank goodness for that. I recall an Irish lady referring to her child's go- kart, which meant pushchair, or today's buggy. To me a go-kart was something else. I hope these regional usages never die out and if we don't understand we can always ask.

Yes, TriciaF, we're in Newcastle, well spotted! At the moment as others have surmised, my DIL is the kids' main carer as they're very young and their dad works long hours. The kids in their school mainly speak as they do so I'm the only role model of what is known as RP (Received Pronunciation). However, I do agree about dialect being part of what makes us British and don't want to be stuffy and over-pedantic. Equally I don't want my grandchildren to be looked down on in later life. They're a pair of bright little buttons with good manners and I would hate anyone to think they're not good enough just because of the way they speak.
I think you have all made helpful and interesting comments. Thank you.

Your comments on "sat" and "sitting" reminded me of something my mother used to say to me. "If you're just sat sitting I can soon find you something to do" (She was very much of the "idle hands" school )

I've always liked the Scots use of 'outwith' for our 'outside' - don't know why, just has a more gentle sound I suppose!

As a Southerner living in Scotland in the 60s, I was intrigued by their use of words different from mine,e.g, when I asked for a mince pie, I was given a meat pie. When I explained, I was told,"That's a Christmas pie". Loved learning the terms but hated the attitude,"I'm right, you're wrong"-it's called English, the clue is in the name!

claireseptember, that is not an easy situation- but you have to tread carefully- ouch. NfkDumpling is right, a local accent and local grammatical structures are fine- as long as the children learn the difference, and what is appropriate and accepted in different situations. Many kids do badly in interviews for instance, because they don't know how to modulate 'street speech' into more formal speech.

We need to be bi-lingual. Dialect and English. Grammer is for reading, writing and English when it's needed to talk to 'proper' to 'foreigners'.

Just keep talking to your DGCs and occasionally pointing things out but don't make a big thing about it. If you do too much you might get a bit of backlash as they get older. On the other hand it is useful to be able to drop your accent if the situation warrants it. Children pick things up anyway so your influence will be there. I imagine they are now quite young and mum is their main carer, so she will be more dominant, your son probably speaks like you anyway so they will get that. Dialect is OK but it sometimes leads to judgements about intelligence/education which are very negative.

No don't correct her! Many of the British accents and dialects are disappearing, which is a shame as they're part of our (I was going to say rich cultural heritage but that's a bit of a cliché.) She seems a bit Geordie? I used to speak like that, out of my Mum's hearing.
And dialects contain many deviations from correct grammar, but that's part of their charm.
There was an article in last week's Sunday Times about even part of the
Scottish accent disappearing ie the "r" in the middle of words like farm and sort.

Here's a problem I have as a retired English teacher. My ds is married to a local girl with a very strong accent and dialect. My DIL said to me this morning 'I've just lent £20 off me mam so I've went to the shops with the bairns to buy summick for wor tea.'
Of course I wouldn't dream of commenting to her but sometimes the children's grammar really grates (they speak as she does) and I correct them, out of earshot of their mum.
Is it OK to correct them do you think or am I just being a snob? Will their dialect be a problem in later life or doesn't it matter any more?