grammar question

In case that sounds patronising, I did have two children at school in the village, and we all gradually modified our pronunciation albeit in their case unconsciously, so that when we went back to living near London, I think we sounded as if we'd been born in Yorkshire! You feel a need to blend in. It's not just the way words are pronounced, it's the ups and downs that make the difference. (We have strayed from 'swim swam swum' haven't we?)

As a southerner, I pronounce 'put' and 'but' differently. I've lived in Yorkshire and remember asking for 'butter' in the village shop. To a Yorkshire ear, my pronunciation sounds like the mixture you make pancakes with - batter. I learnt to make the first syllable rhyme with 'put'. So difficult for non-English speakers learning the language.

BTW where are you from Jack? Have you ever read Melwynn Bragg's book about the English Language, where he describes how he just had to lose his strong Lancashire (I think...) accent when he went to Uni. In his case, sad that he lost it altogether- much better, for me at least, to be able to dip in and aout of both. It has certainly made coming back living in my mountains after 40 years in UK, much easier with the 'locals' - who like to hear I have not lost my roots.

About Mrs Bucket- yes, it was hilarious- and that is the key, adapt a bit, but not too much- either way- or it sounds either ridiculous or condescending. It I started saying 'I was stood standing there right with me boooouk' it would be daft.

No offense at all, it is an excellent question. My parents had a very flat accent and were considered 'posh' here in my mountains. As a kid, I loved to pick up the local accent, expression and words- but soon learnt that they were not welcome at home. Nothing to do with 'not being myself' at all- just accepting that some situations required different types of speech, and behaviour in general.

And then in the UK I lived and worked in London with people who had RP- and adopted same naturally (although my 'haitches' did let me down somewhat- which they all found funny). Then we moved to the Potteries, and in my new job all the staff, both white collar and shop-floor, had a strong Staffs accent- even my boss the MD- and I soon picked up the local accent at work and expressions. I have a very good ear for languages, and loved it. But back home with OH, family and friends, RP took over again. Then we moved to Leics, and same thing happened. I then went to Uni to become a Mod Langs teacher- and it was clear that to teach I had to use standard French (had to change the way I count, and many words too) and accent. An English teacher here, from, say, North Yorkshire, would do the same, quite naturally. But when we visited my parents, friends and family here, i switched back. Same me, same person- but it is just natural to do so.

In the UK, and here, we have a friends and family from vastly different background- I am no chameleon, but it is natural to adjust a little, at times a bit more. They have hugely different political views and life experiences too- which can be hard at times, but makes life so so interesting.

granjura - why do you feel the need to change your accent and speech patterns when you are with different types of people? I think we should be true to ourselves and stick to the accents we have been born and brought up with, whether they are ultra posh, received pronunciation or broad regional.

Just look at Mrs Bouquet! She adopted a highly irritating "posh" voice to impress others, but few were taken in. We just laughed at the poor woman, because her accent was terrifyingly affected.

I hope I haven't offended you, granjura, but in my experience it is better to stick to one's own use of the English language (in speech as well as on the written page) than to change it in order to feel you are "fitting in" with other people.

Language changes all the time and what we considered incorrect quickly becomes accepted as the right form. It annoys me too but as a writer I've learned to go with the flow and can even bring myself to put a comma before an and which I was taught in my childhood was wrong and unnecessary.

What do they say in the USA/Australia?

Ana yes you are correct...should read we swam in that lake and have swum go together.

Sorry TriciaF for misinforming you.

So often one hears or reads in the media "different to". I am prompted to shout out the chant I remember from school - SIMILAR TO, DIFFERENT FROM.

hear hear jane10 - and I'd had regional grammar to the list too. One old friend in Leics always switches the 'you was' and 'I were' - and other similar 'mistakes' and for me it makes language so much the better for it.

Local accents are disappearing so fast- where on live on the French border, the accent on either side was really strongly marked in my generation, but now you just can't hear the difference with the kids- they all sound the same. Not sure that is progress. Having said that, I can still speak 2 kinds of French, the local and the 'normal' (whatever that is!)... and same in English. I do not speak the same to my Surrey sil and bil as I do to some of my Leics friends. Most of us change the tone and register depending on 'audience' - especially if we have a huge mixture of friends and family from very different backgrounds/areas.

Mind you the first time I heard the 'I were stood standing there' ... I was a bit puzzled re grammar, lol.

Who owns the rules for pronunciation? Who is to say how certain words or letters should be pronounced? Grammar is one thing and pronunciation is something else altogether. I don't like certain accents and dialects but I fully accept that that is how people from that area speak and I have no right to tell them that they should speak my way and not theirs.

Haitch isn't just dialect, it's also never having seen it written down. Irritates me a bit, but not half as much as hearing 'different than' �� instead of 'different from'.
I commented on 'bored of doing that' being wrong to my DGD but she just said it's only like saying 'fed up of doing that' and you say that Grandma.��

But did you spit Feetle?

The glottal stop is an integral part of the Norfolk accent. We dornt orl speek posh all on the toime yer know. Thar's graama an torkin proper so as them thar incomers can join in an' understand wot we're a goin on abou' an' then there's that wot git's spoke atome!

Yep - tried it without the teeth and the 'tt' is still there! The tongue merely strikes the back of the gum instead of the teeth...

I'm sure I could still say 'buTTer' without my front teeth, but I know what you mean, acanthus

Ditto all of the above bugbears which I agree are irritating, but we must remember that English is a constantly changing organism and even we grammar police use spellings and pronunciation (oh yes, and why do people say 'pronounciation'?) which would have horrified previous generations.

However I must admit to being very annoyed by the incorrect use of 'I' as the object of a sentence, e.g. "They gave a lovely send-off to my wife and I." It's mistakenly used as a form of politeness, but you would never say "They gave .... to I". 'I' is the subject of a sentence, e.g. "You and I both know that....."

And then there's the failure to pronounce 'ing' properly, so often heard on TV and radio. Grrr!

I often hear or read that such lapses are due to regional/cultural language differences but I believe for the most part it's down to laziness. Ironically, the glottal stop so beloved by youngsters and others who should know better ('bu'-e'r instead of 'butter') expends more energy within the mouth than pronouncing a hard 't' using the front teeth.

No mamie, she said they never call it ragù Bolognese, but just 'ragù'.

Agree, Ana

Lys60 'we swum in that lake' isn't right, surely?

'We swam in that lake' or 'we have swum in that lake' are correct according to the GN consensus.

Oh yes! 'He was taken badly' or 'feeling badly' - fond memories of my Yorkshire grandparents (and actually I think it was/is also used in parts of Lancashire).

I love Yorkshire speak Tricia. I still cherish the inteview I went to when a school governor asked, "Art th'often badly?". Answer was no!

The chefs (including Carluccio) all seem to call it ragù bolognese though? But pork, veal or beef? Red, rosé or white wine or even milk? Carrot and / or celery? Fast or slow? Usually the Marcella Hazan recipe here, though fundamentally I think it is peasant food and anything goes....
Usually made with tagliatelle here.
So was the student saying that ragù bolognese isn't from Bologna?

Lys60 - thanks for that confirmation of "swum".
I wanted to add to to Ana's comment on "just" -
There used to be a phrase commonly used in Hull - "just nicely" eg
"We was just nicely buried when ....."