grammar question

Used to thin so too, Mamie, but was put right by an Italian student from Bologna we hosted many moons ago.

I thought Italian ragù was French ragoût meaning stew and ragù bolognese was a stew fron Bologna?

LOL, actually it is normally served with tagliatelle and is called

tagliatelle al ragu- if we are going to be pedantic.

From Lonely Planet website:

You won’t see the words ‘spaghetti bolognese’ gracing menus in Bologna. What you’re looking for is tagliatelle al ragù; different name, same shirt-splattering dining experience.

Read more: www.lonelyplanet.com/italy/emilia-romagna-and-san-marino/bologna/travel-tips-and-articles/the-real-ragu-10-things-you-didnt-know-about-authentic-spaghetti-bolognese#ixzz3h1KII4GQ

Yes, I thought it was ragu bolognese, not spaghetti ragu!

Of course too each area has its own little nuances and peculiarities of language throughout the UK. While I know what is meant someone new to my area might not have an iota of an idea about what is being communicated.

Ps It is we swum in that lake.

Gj - spaghetti alla bolognese is made with ragu! So Italian husband says.

hihi- and of course the Italians have no idea what Spagetti Bolognese is- they call it spagetti ragù!

Now, he is one from a French speaking pedant (not...) really makes me laugh when really posh people (well, think they are) talk about their horses at the 'ménage' ... A ménage is a household (remember 'ménage à trois') and a horse training area is a 'manège' and so is a roundabout at the fair.

I can remember most of it, it must have been driven into me pretty thoroughly. If I had to stop and think about it, I think I would start to doubt myself though. Occasionally I force myself to think in German or French, and then usually find that it is the verbs that I can't remember, rather than the noun genders.

DD is far more of a grammarnazi that I am, she even posts on facebook about it, which I feel is very brave, considering some of her friends...

Yesterday's offering was

'It really gets to me when people refer to the 'spag bowl' they are having for dinner that evening.

It's spag BOL people, if you MUST shorten it! It's short for spaghetti Bolognese!'

I must ask her one day, how many friends she loses when she posts something like that!

... and ooops, I suppose it should be 'with the aim of getting rid of' ... tripping myself up here!

Teaching communicativly is much easier in English with beginners. In German, right from the very beginning, you have 3 articles and have to use the akkusativ (with the direct object)

Do not read beyond if not interested, but just in case anyone is wondering what I am on about (as per usual ;) )

der Bruder (masc, brother)
die Schwester (fem, sister)
das Kaninchen (neut, rabbit)

but ich habe einen Bruder und eine Schwester, und auch ein Kanninchen.

(I have a brother and a sister, and also a rabbit) - 3 different endings for the direct object depending on masculine, feminine or neuter)- and it just can't be avoided- although the teacher can always choose to soft pedal on systematic correction.

I am bemused by the way women "fall pregnant" I know it's been around for yonks but it always sounds very careless to me!

Old music hall joke: "he died of a Tuesday".
The use of "of" in the sense, "I go to market of a Monday morning" has apparently been in constant use in British English since records began.
I quite like it, actually.

They say 'I just saw' here too though! In fact, I probably say it myself sometimes...

At last, I thought I was going mad with hearing 'of' an evening instead of 'in' the evening, and 'bored of....' . I remember hearing 'of an evening' being said on 'Colditz' years ago by a character played by Anthony Valentine, and it offended me then!

It's noticeable that in American English, the perfect tense is falling into disuse. For example, instead of 'I have just seen', they will say, 'I just saw'. I must say, I regret the passing of the distinction between the perfect tense and the simple past.

Broke and broken are often confused, as in: " I had to go to the laundrette because my washing machine was broke.

I have a few French friends who are (were, just retired) brilliant English teachers in Elbeuf and Rouen, in Lycées- but they were really the exception, sadly.

I now specialise in intensive French or English courses, residential- with the aim to get rid of the grammatical difficulties which trip people up for no reason at all, and concentrate only on those which impair good communication (with others learnt for passive recognition) - it is just as valid to say 'je dois faire' (I must do) rather than the hugely complicated 'il faut que je fasse'- etc. In English, why teach the simple past concurrently with the perfect- which is hugely confusing (especially for French speakers)! Etc, etc.

My bugbear is "on the weekend" when surely it should be "at the weekend"

Yes exactly that in our bit of France too GJ. With the advice "if you are not sure if it is right, don't say it". Aaaargh.......

What I really, really, really want to know is if people on this thread had been alive in Skakespeare's time whether they would have objected to the coining of the word "pedant".
And if not, why not?

So agree- communication, communication and more .... OH had an excellent Grammar School education (Woking Grammar, anyone here?)- and did O'Level French, but could NOT string 2 words together! My first head of Dept when I started teaching in the UK was a O'Level Chief examiner from one of the O'level boards, and could not speak French at all- but he knew every single bit of intricate French grammar, and insisted on teaching the past subjunctive to all, saying it sorted the sheep from the goats! He did have to leave when it was evident that his French communication was zilch, and ended up in a private school.

It's a bit like learning to read and understand music theory, and not being able to play or sing at all.

I grieve here as I teach youngsters on both sides of the border- where from a young age, learning a foreign language is all about writing, vocab without context, spelling- and no communication- with marks given almost exclusively for writing (not communicative writing even).

When I started to learn Latin at the age of 11, the grammar came quite easily because we had been strictly drilled in English grammar in primary school. I loved grammar lessons and have since realised that I learnt by recognising patterns in languages. Learning styles vary from one person to another. Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages - ESOL - the emphasis is on communication first and foremost; grammatical constructions come at the higher levels.

My bugbear is people saying " we were Laying down" instead of lying down!

Countable nouns; fewer and less. " There were less people than I thought." Should be fewer as people are, in this case individal entities. BUT usage means correct grammar is redundant. However, snobs will tend to demean those with regionsl accents, like my Manchester one, and say things like,"Ee by gum." When I open my mouth, and look down on those who use incorrect grammar, for example saying them instead of those, but if you're a nice person, and have something worthwhile or funny to say, who cares?

In the spirit of my post I shall not apologise for the involuntary transposition in my previous comments.

Cross-posted!
As I said upthread, the children are likely to have been taught the grammatical construction. If they haven't used it since they probably will deny all knowledge.
One of the most salutary lessons I learnt was when I took a primary class for two years and the children told me that they had never certain learnt things. When I reminded them of the context in which we had covered it the year before they said, "Oh yes". Before that I would have blamed the preceding direct teacher .
People who object to "scorchio" are just ignoramuses!
I love The Fast Show.