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Pedants' corner

Is this wrong?

(37 Posts)
Nelliemoser Mon 12-Sep-16 22:56:36

I have just been to choir and one carol we were practising had the line.

"lullaby sweet Jesus sleeps among ?? the hay.
Somehow among sounds wrong to me,but I can't see how?

I feel amidst would be better. I don't know why this annoys me so much.
Any thoughts?

Bellanonna Mon 12-Sep-16 23:08:41

I think the noun needs to be plural. Sleeps among or amongst the sheep, cows, whatever.

absent Tue 13-Sep-16 00:27:13

Among or amid – surrounded by – are both correct. Amongst and amidst are both archaic and, some would argue, literary.

trisher Tue 13-Sep-16 11:01:43

But shouldn't a carol be 'literary'?
Actually I think the whole concept is wrong- he would be sleeping 'on' the hay surely- 'among' seems to imply he is surrounded by it. Anyway it isn't a nice word is it? Strangely enough "amongst" sounds slightly better and I agree 'amidst' has definitely a better sound.
But I suppose you'd better sing the words that were written!

DaphneBroon Tue 13-Sep-16 14:04:44

"See amid(st?) the winter's snow
Born for us on earth below
See the tender Lamb appears
Promised from the eternal years"

"among" wouldn't sound right though would it?

Lillie Tue 13-Sep-16 15:30:29

It couldn't be "on" *trisher" because that would only be one syllable and wouldn't fit the music? Not that I have a clue about phrasing.

Bellanonna Tue 13-Sep-16 20:07:59

Still think among needs plural noun

MontanaGal Tue 13-Sep-16 20:51:06

I think "upon" the hay sounds better.

Ana Tue 13-Sep-16 21:07:00

I agree, MontanaGal. All the other suggestions make it seem (to me) as though Jesus was somehow mixed up with the hay!

Claudiaclaws Tue 13-Sep-16 21:37:19

I think amongst sounds better than among. Amidst sounds nice as well.

MaizieD Wed 14-Sep-16 09:54:16

Hay is a sort of plural noun, surely? You certainly don't get one hay.

I do agree that 'among' sounds odd and that 'amidst' would be better.

NemosMum Wed 14-Sep-16 10:08:42

'Hay' is a mass noun, surely, like 'milk' and 'mud'. Many of the lyrics of carols sound slightly ridiculous if you think about them.

foxie Wed 14-Sep-16 10:09:16

The language of psalms, hymns and prayers often doesn't meet modern rules of translation and that perhaps adds to their uniqueness and charm.

Elegran Wed 14-Sep-16 10:11:58

I wouldn't say "among" the hay - among the many hay stalks perhaps, but hay is a bulk term. I see nothing wrong with asleep on the hay? Amidst the hay perhaps, if his mother had heaped it up around him to keep him warm, very likely as she wouldn't have brought a load of bedclothes with her.

Lilyflower Wed 14-Sep-16 10:14:56

Reminds me of a story my DH tells of when he was five and at primary school. When the headteacher explained that 'There is a green hill far away without a city wall...' meant the eminence had no surrounding protection he told her that actually the words indicated that 'without' meant'outside' the perimeter. Hilarious. He was a precocious chap.

Elegran Wed 14-Sep-16 10:40:22

"Without" is still used to mean the opposite of "within", even in pop songs - "Come all without, come all within. You ain't seen nothing like the mighty Quinn"

pollyputthekettleon Wed 14-Sep-16 11:11:23

I think you need to get out morewinksmile

annodomini Wed 14-Sep-16 11:38:51

And we Scots still use 'outwith' to mean outside of apart from.

lizzypopbottle Wed 14-Sep-16 11:58:01

In Alnwick (Northumberland) we have Bondgate Without and Bondgate Within.
The link shows a photo of the Bondgate from 'without'.

piningforthewest.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2010/08/a-alnwick-gate.jpg

Gaggi3 Wed 14-Sep-16 12:08:23

Tried the among thing out in my head and decided a plural is needed somewhere. "I was among friends" is fine and "asleep among the flowers" would be too, but "among the hay" does sound wrong IMO.

VIOLETTE Wed 14-Sep-16 14:34:35

I had a laugh at this question ...not because I have any particular thing to add, I like the Christmas carols, etc the traditional way they always have been ....but, when we moved from Essex up to Nottinghamshire, a former mining village, my daughter;s first Christmas play, in the local Church, with the new (to us) dialect, I found it lovely when the Inn Keeper announced "Ain't no room int inn, but there's a barn wi straw on t'floor' and the narrator then pronounced later that t'babby were here in t'manger, wi t'straw'....no amongst, or amidst, but with ........still laught about it now, some 30 odd years later .....lovely !

GrannyBing Wed 14-Sep-16 16:03:34

In the context of the carol I think "among" is right. The words are not really about saying that Jesus sleeps in or on hay. If it were a statement of fact, then yes it would be better to say Jesus sleeps upon the hay. But the words are actually saying that all's well with the world because Jesus is there, he's sleeping, there are guardian angels, Mary's watching over him. It's right because it puts the emphasis on Jesus being present ... oh, and there's hay which just happens to be there too.
It's a subtle (OK, pedantic) difference but I think the old carol writers knew what they were doing!

Ana Wed 14-Sep-16 16:41:46

Well, the one who wrote Away in a Manger must have thought differently! grin

Buddie Wed 14-Sep-16 16:52:01

I sometimes think the more you look at words the more the language seems to jar. To be honest this read fine to me although in many old carols this might have had amongst rather than among. However I believe this is a modern carol - Christmas Night John Rutter? I put the lyrics for that through a spell and grammar check and the use of heav'n for heaven was the only item highlighted and that is just shortened form used to fit the melody. Language evolves.

GrannyBing Wed 14-Sep-16 17:39:52

Good point Ana, I agree. Away in a Manger does something different, the words give us to an image of Jesus asleep on the hay. Whereas in Nelliemoser's it's about Jesus among other people/things around him. To me the words are meant conjure up a safe, secure image. I think the writer chose 'among' carefully and was right. I don't know that though, obviously! confused