Doctor's surgery

Forget the surgery. Its now a medical centre. Simples!

That would make things a lot easier, Jane10

Unfortunately, ours us still very much a surgery - it's in its name (Placename Surgery).
I need to have a quiet word with the doctors to see if they will change it.

There were no apostrophes in Old English, so the genitive/ possessive would just be indicated by a final s, though words and endings differed. I’ll try to think of an example. Come to think of it, I don’t know when apostrophes came into general use.

An example from Old English would be ‘godes sunu’, God’s son. Spelling varied. (I don’t think they had hairdressers.)

That article was really interesting. Thanks for posting that.

I think I remember, reading some Jane Austen texts, that "hers" was written as "her's".

But his was written as "his"!

Interesting, though, that the concept of possession probably did not exist as such for women back in the day.

oldgimmer1
Interesting, though, that the concept of possession probably did not exist as such for women back in the day.

I agree. In fact, hard to believe.
Imagine two people arguing ever an apple, either one or both of them a woman - I wonder how one would express the idea of "She says it's not hers!"

Another one that's bugging me:

For work reasons, I have to write Carer's Allowance on a regular basis.

I am convinced that it can, and should, be written as Carers' Allowance but I never see it written that way, even on the DWP's own site.

In my view:

An allowance for a carer - Carer's Allowance.

An allowance for carers - Carers' Allowance.

Am I right, or am I right? .

I meant, "she says it's not hers"

That's exactly the sort of thing I struggle with too, oldgimmer1.
Logic tells me one thing, but common usage seems to suggest otherwise.

Carers' Allowance is correct. I think it looks better with no apostrophe.

Forget the surgery. Its now a medical centre. Simples! grin

I don't think so
There are surgeries and/or clinics WITHIN the practice or medical centre.

A medical centre is not = a surgery. It is the firm/business/building
A surgery is what happens within it.
You can have several surgeries and clinics running at any one time within a Practice or medical centre.

"Surgery" refers to the job list/ actual work

You can also have more than one GP practices within larger medical centres

So GP X may be a partner in Practice A within medical centre G which also contains practice B

GP X is always a partner at practice A, but only holds a surgery there on Tuesdays and Thursdays

Women couldn’t own property. Everything they had belonged to their husband. But of course you could say that apple is her’s.

Even though legally it wasn’t ?

I would write "I am going to the hairdresser's" if I didn't know whether the hairdresser in question employed others or not, as I after all only need the services of one hairdresser. Like you, I regard the possessive as correct there, being short for the hairdresser's premises, or whatever.

Englatine's example was fine for all words that do not end on an s - those that do are a mine-field.

Should one write James' book or James's book? I was taught the first, but others will say that both forms are correct.

Howards End is the title of a book and the property in the story. The author chose not to use an apostrophe, although most of us would think there should have been one.

So if the singular noun ends on an s, basically you can please yourself, although not if writing the name of a firm, there you should use the form they do. Barclays Bank seems to have got rid of the apostrophe, although unless my memory fails me they used to have one in their name.

I'm going to the hairdresser if I know its only one, e.g. if it's a work from home hairdresser. If its a salon then I'm going to the hairdressers. Its pleural not posessive.

notanan
Help - I'm still struggling with this!

I can just about accept that "I'm going to the hairdresser / doctor might be right without an apostrophe, but if you change the noun to, for instance, the butcher - I'm going to the butcher, it just doesn't sound right to me. To my, ear, it is screaming out for an apostrophe and a possessive s to imply, the butcher's shop.
And if you change the verb, I struggle even more: "^I need to call in at the doctor^" (rather than, "^I am going to the doctor^") surely can't be right?

Any explanation is welcome, as this is driving me crazy, and as someone who wasn't taught at school how to use the apostrophe (or, quite frankly, any English grammar whatsoever beyond primary level), I will never be 100% confident of my English grammar and am still keen to learn!

I do admire people like you, MamaCaz. You make a perfect student.

I think the use of the apostrophe can be confusing. Also, we often see it sprinkled all over the place: cheap carrot's/flat's for sale. Many people genuinely do not know how to use it correctly.

As for doctor's/butcher's etc I would say and write ”I'm going to the doctor's” because 'doctor's surgery' is understood. The same with butcher's: ”I went to the butcher's (shop).” I don't think it matters how many doctors there are at the surgery or how many butchers in the shop.

Words ending in s:
In the past it was customary, when a word ended in s, to write its possessive with an apostrophe but no extra s, e.g. Achilles' heel. This is still the custom in verse and poetic contexts, and the number of syllables is the same as in the subjective case, e.g. Achilles' has three syllables, Jesus' has two.

But elsewhere we now usually add the s when the word is monosyllabic, and when it is longer: St James's Street, Pythagoras's doctrines.

Somebody else may confirm or refute this!

Greta
Last night, I was flicking through some of the many language books that we have somehow accumulated over the last twenty or so years, trying to find answers to my own doubts.

I eventually found explanations that pretty much confirm what you have said above (well, apart from the bit about my making a perfect student, but they can't be expected to know everything)!

The bit relevant to doctor's, butcher's etc. was in the Penguin book, 'Usage and Abusage':

Worth noting, though it presents few difficulties, is the genitive absolute: that genitive in which the governing noun is omitted and which applies especially to residences and to places of business, as in 'Buy a loaf at the baker's in the next street', 'I spent a pleasant hour at the Smith's [house, flat, apartment, etc.], after an unpleasant half-hour at Robinson & Smith's [office or shop or factory]'.

So far this morning, I can't (re)find the passage relating to what you say about words end in in s (that's the trouble with looking on so many books!), but I will keep looking, if I have time, and post it if it seems appropriate once I have re-read it.

in, not on, in my last paragraph.

Our local medical practice is called a 'Medical Centre', which doesn't stop local people referring to 'the surgery'. Old habits die hard. I wonder why the term 'surgery' became common usage, as the doctors are not there to cut you up - well, not often. A better term would be 'clinic' and Americans refer to the 'doctor's office' which doesn't suggest medical expertise at all.

mcem

I'm just glad you didn't include surgery's as a choice.
Your punctuation looks fine - apart from your missing '?' which you spotted by yourself so that doesn't count!

"surgery's" would be correct if it meant "of one surgery" eg "the surgery's door was closed"

Your use of the apostrophe and your explanations are perfect!