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Pedants' corner

That’s it, I give up….

(117 Posts)
Kate54 Sun 18-Sept-22 20:03:49

According to the ITV news this evening, during the final part of Her Majesty’s funeral tomorrow the Queen will ‘lay’ next to her husband. I’m pretty sure she won’t. Eggs? The table?
And before anyone points out that we all understand what was meant (‘lie’ by the way) I’ll issue the usual reminder - this is pedants’ corner!

Feelingmyage55 Tue 20-Sept-22 19:07:55

One commentator said that the Queen’s coffin was being “laid on the altar”. “The Queen is now lying on the altar”. Grr Catafalque is an unusual word but it has been well explained this week.

Kate54 Tue 20-Sept-22 18:11:44

Not convinced! It’s meant to be present conditional I think. In the same way one would say to
One’s OH ‘ If I lie here long enough, will you bring me a cup of tea?’

Germanshepherdsmum Tue 20-Sept-22 17:59:18

I have lain down to ease my referendums BP.

growstuff Tue 20-Sept-22 17:50:24

An alternative would be "if I were to lie here ...", but that wouldn't scan very well.

growstuff Tue 20-Sept-22 17:49:14

The complete sentence (question) is "If I just lay here,
would you lie with me and just forget the world?"

The "if" and "would" form a classic conditional construction, in which a simple past is used.

growstuff Tue 20-Sept-22 17:45:59

Kate54

Past simple construction, yes, but no mention in your link if this being used as conditional.
Surely, it should be ‘If I lie here….’

But it is being used as a conditional. The "if" is the clue.

Kate54 Tue 20-Sept-22 17:39:02

Sorry, meant to copy Growstuff’s comment there but it didn’t work!

Kate54 Tue 20-Sept-22 17:38:03

Past simple construction, yes, but no mention in your link if this being used as conditional.
Surely, it should be ‘If I lie here….’

Germanshepherdsmum Tue 20-Sept-22 17:05:49

Today’s blood pressure moment for me was both a presenter and a reporter talking about ‘referendums’.

grandtanteJE65 Tue 20-Sept-22 16:57:17

Kalu

Now I lay me down to sleep? Just got me wondering.

That is the whole point, actually, Kalu: in British English, as opposed to American, you can only use "lay" if it takes an object.

Now I lay me down to sleep - does precisely that and the sentence can be parsed as Subject I, verb lay, direct object me, Adverbial clause of reason or purpose to sleep.

In the Passive voice it is perfectly correct to say, "Queen Elizabeth was laid to rest in the royal vault beside her husband, Prince Phillip.

But incorrect to use lay in the present tense, or will lay in the future tense in an Active sentence.

growstuff Tue 20-Sept-22 16:49:27

Kate54

Snow Patrol’s Chasing Cars (‘if I just lay here ‘ etc) may also have something to do with it. Great song otherwise.

dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/lay-or-lie

"Lay" in the Snow Patrol lyrics is a past simple construction used as a conditional.

growstuff Tue 20-Sept-22 16:44:30

Snap, Witzend.

growstuff Tue 20-Sept-22 16:43:55

rockgran

Kalu - I think "Lay me down" is correct because you are placing your body on the bed.
I blame Bob Dylan for "Lay lady Lay". I always pictured a huge hen.

I agree. "Lay" is a transitive verb and has an object (in this case "me"). "Lie" can't have an object.

Startingover61 Tue 20-Sept-22 16:37:10

I’m an editor/proofreader by profession and I find myself shouting at the TV when reporters make a grammatical error. The other day, one said that someone was ‘currently in a meeting at the moment’. It seems that the current trend is to use as many words as possible in a sentence, regardless of whether they have the same meaning: ‘also … as well’ is another example.

Witzend Mon 19-Sept-22 17:54:40

Kalu

Now I lay me down to sleep? Just got me wondering.

That’s all right, isn’t it? ‘Lay’ should be followed by an object (the table, an egg) which here is ‘me’. Archaic usage, but IMO nowt wrong with it.

Kate54 Mon 19-Sept-22 17:48:47

Snow Patrol’s Chasing Cars (‘if I just lay here ‘ etc) may also have something to do with it. Great song otherwise.

rockgran Mon 19-Sept-22 17:33:27

Kalu - I think "Lay me down" is correct because you are placing your body on the bed.
I blame Bob Dylan for "Lay lady Lay". I always pictured a huge hen.

welbeck Mon 19-Sept-22 16:34:01

oh GSM ! i've given up with the BBC.
that is beyond the pale.
or as they'd probably say, the bucket.

welbeck Mon 19-Sept-22 16:31:34

heard this am on the commentary, re her late majesty,
her and her sister margaret used to go...;
instead of, she and her sister...
that one sounds obvious and simple to me.
similarly one hears so much of,
me and my brother went to...;
and contrary-wise one often hears,
thank you for the gifts you gave to my wife and i. !
i guess if they don't care, it doesn't matter. does it?

Germanshepherdsmum Mon 19-Sept-22 16:30:00

Yesterday a BBC reporter referred to the people having to finishing filing past the Queen’s coffin as needing to finish ‘in time for the Queen to be cleared away’. As though she were the remnants of a meal.

Kate54 Mon 19-Sept-22 16:28:34

Oh, no one says ‘me’ any more! Forget the rules of English grammar, ‘myself’ apparently sounds ‘better’….

Kalu Mon 19-Sept-22 16:28:08

Now I lay me down to sleep? Just got me wondering.

rockgran Mon 19-Sept-22 16:21:28

It has become so common that I think it will soon be the accepted form. I blame pop song lyrics.
The other mistake that bothers me is ".....for you and I " instead of ".....for you and me" - again in so many pop songs!

welbeck Mon 19-Sept-22 15:48:00

i don't think it is a matter of proofreading.
it is lack of knowledge and a gathering shift in the importance attached to such things.
basically, they don't care. they being anybody under about 50 years of age. including officials.
look at the use of floor for outdoor ground.
it's everywhere. education makes no difference.

ExDancer Mon 19-Sept-22 15:44:52

One that irritates me is "10 items or less" in supermarkets.