‘Birthing’

MaggsMcG

Poor USA women forced back into the dark ages. Is a disgrace. Don't let any party that even thinks that way get back in power anywhere in Europe.

Agreed. Part of why I was so fixed on getting sterilised back along was I feared a political party ever getting into power that was trying to "put the clock back" on that front. Shades of Gilead indeed (Margaret Atwood's horrific book).

I knew all that way back then in the 1970s that we were at risk of people trying to "put the clock back on us". I knew the fact that our birthrate was obviously going to go down (now we had the means to hand) would put us at risk of forced pregnancies or the like somewhere along the line (ie an arrogant person/party "in power" forcing legal abortion/the Pill out of our hands). Fortunately things moved a lot slower than I thought they would in that sort of direction - though I'm glad I'd safeguarded my own personal position in that respect. It's always wise imo to think "What will I do if it turns out I'm more modern than the State is?"

I am pleased to know that we helped Irish women out in that respect - and they could come to England if they'd decided on an abortion and Ireland was refusing them and we'd help them to do so.

seasider

I think “we are having a baby “ conveys a joint decision. “We are pregnant” sounds ridiculous and impossible. I used to be a visiting officer for the CSA and met many women who hadn’t told the fathers of their children they had become a father. Sometimes it seemed a conscious decision to get pregnant. Of course the men should have taken precautions too ! It was the children I felt sorry for .

Agree that sometimes these women are making that joint decision on their own. It's wrong of them to expect either a reluctant man or a reluctant State to pay for their decision. It was their decision - and I felt sorry for children (as I've always held to "It must be both parents making a deliberate decision to be parents and not just one of them").

I'm looking back to the early 1970s and remembering a Labour Party councillor answering my "How one manages to get a Council flat" query with "Get pregnant maid" - and he was serious!!!!! I was equally serious when I said "...and then what do I do with that unwanted child when it's served its purpose and got me housed?" and refused to go through an unwanted pregnancy/giving birth to get a tenancy and asked for a serious suggestion on how to manage it (though he was clearly serious!!!).

I also recall an irate man and his heavily pregnant sister turning up at a house of bedsits I lived in at the time (again - early 1970s) - and he was looking for a man that used to live there and it seemed to be with the intention of forcing a shotgun marriage (as they were called) onto the man. Fortunately I was telling the truth when I said I had no idea where the man was - though part of me was thinking "The pill and legal abortions have been here for a few years by now. How old-fashioned - I thought that had stopped". Can't say whether there were corners of Britain where that still happened - but that was a modern city and I thought that had stopped there and hence the puzzled/gobsmacked reaction he got from me.

I think “we are having a baby “ conveys a joint decision. “We are pregnant” sounds ridiculous and impossible. I used to be a visiting officer for the CSA and met many women who hadn’t told the fathers of their children they had become a father. Sometimes it seemed a conscious decision to get pregnant. Of course the men should have taken precautions too ! It was the children I felt sorry for .

Poor USA women forced back into the dark ages. Is a disgrace. Don't let any party that even thinks that way get back in power anywhere in Europe.

It feels so wierd - looking back now - that whole idea FranP of being "allowed" birth control by someone else. Also seriously wierd to have to get another persons permission (ie the husband). I can believe such a wierd way of looking at things as some had back then - because it would have been 1973 (I think) when I thought "Right...I'm the relevant agegroup. I want to start dating and sex is part of that now" and went off to the family doctor for a prescription for the Pill. The thought literally hadnt occurred to me that the doctor would try having a personal opinion about MY concern. It wasn't a particularly old-fashioned part of the country either - but his response was along the lines of "Go away and think about it".

It was not much longer after that that I emigrated to Denmark (ie a more modern country than my own) and that was part of my reasoning (ie my country is more old-fashioned than I am) and just headed straight into a Danish doctor and told him that I was going on the Pill and "asked" (that British ask that means "told") him to prescribe it for me and he didn't blink an eyelid and did so. Cue for when I moved back to England after all a couple of months later = I was able to go to a doctor near grotty bedsit no. 1 I had just moved into and confidently state "I'm on Eugynon 50 and I need a repeat prescription please" and he didn't blink an eyelid and handed it to me (though by that time things were helped by my being in a university city that prides itself on being only "6 months behind London"), rather than the nearby small town I'd been in before (ie a bit more old-fashioned than me). My city matched me in a lot of ways and so they didn't create an issue for me by trying to force someone else's opinion onto me. I'd chosen carefully when I selected which place was going to be my "home city" - so that it "matched me - rather than trying to mould me" - as I knew I was pretty modern and independent myself...so it had to be too.

I remember the Pill was quite a heavy dose then - and it always surprises me that it's a lighter dose now when many women are overweight these days and so, I gather, need a heavier dose to cope with that extra weight (but that wasnt the case back then - as most people were slim then).

I wasnt charmed at the thought of having to be on the Pill for around 30 years (ie until menopause) - but needs must and I was going to have to be (ie without a break at all) in order to ensure no risk at all until Cosmopolitan magazine had a little article saying "Marie Stopes clinics are now doing sterilisation operations on women" and no ifs/buts written in it (ie just "You pay for it = you get it") and so 4 weeks later I was in London having that done and was relieved to be able to come off the Pill after all after 7 years constantly of having to be on it. I think that would have been 1980 that I had that chance to get that done/dusted. These days I look with astonishment at any woman declaring she'll do "natural" birth control...monitoring her menstrual cycle and just deciding "no sex" at relevant times of the month and think "How can someone let their body make their decisions for them like that? and it's not that reliable a method anyway. Wonder how many abortions they have to have if they use that?"

I'd rather forgotten that some women apparently had problems with someone more old-fashioned than them making THEIR decisions for them - and the women let them get away with it. Me - I'd decided my viewpoint and would have waited for Society as a whole to catch up with me if I'd had to - rather than have them force me into unwanted pregnancies to suit an old-fashioned viewpoint.

win

kircubbin2000

I don't remember ever trying or deciding to become pregnant. It just happened without any discussion in those days.

Not to me it did not, surely it is your duty not to let its happen until you can afford a child and want one. I know accidents can happen but even in those days you had a choice. I do also understand that some women were totally uneducated on these matters are you saying you were one of those?

My brother is 62, and mother was "allowed" birth control by her doctor because she now had 3 and a difficult birth. It was not common, and in many cases required husband's permission. Doctor did not seek it, but many did, and it could be refused.

I married in 1971 and clinics were only just being set up in many areas, so if your doctor was the old-fashioned sort, it was still not that easy.

In 1978, I worked in a family planning clinic in Wales, where it was refused for under 18s, unless a parent came too - a bit weird for the married 16 year olds. And for each childless woman, there was a discussion about it being a method of delaying, not preventing pregnancy.
Because the pill was quite a heavy dose in the 60s and 70s, the common guidelines were 5 years and off.

win

kircubbin2000

I don't remember ever trying or deciding to become pregnant. It just happened without any discussion in those days.

Not to me it did not, surely it is your duty not to let its happen until you can afford a child and want one. I know accidents can happen but even in those days you had a choice. I do also understand that some women were totally uneducated on these matters are you saying you were one of those?

It was a conscious decision with us too, that it was time to try. Both times.

magenta....i learned all this from uk websites and shows
nobody here uses those word
7nieces in the last 6yrs so would come up

So do I. Annoying.

Mollygo

Not worth arguing about so I’ll leave you to it CA.

Best not 😂

It seems someone thinks I birthed a balloon 🎈 it takes all sorts 😁

I agree with the irritation about "birthed a baby" instead of "gave birth".

Oh you mean 98% efficacy if I recall aright. Last time I looked 98% is not the same as 100%. Last time I looked it's only the woman that can have an abortion - it's physically impossible for the man to do so. Men have tried to have their say about an abortion for a pregnancy they didn't choose to have - and been denied it by the woman...as she's gone ahead and had the child anyway...

I wish women realised what they were saying about themselves when they make comments like that - as in I'd be wondering if one could even be friend level with them - in case they always wanted their own way in other contexts too. I'd be nervous in case they always wanted to make any joint decision on their own.

The phrase I really hate is 'trying for a baby'. I'm afraid I get all-too-clear scenes in my head from that one.

CariadAgain

ferry23

Along with "We're pregnant"

Now I do tend to agree with that phrase - as I interpret it as meaning "We" made a joint decision as to whether to get pregnant or no. So many women still decide to get pregnant on their own!!!!!!! - and he doesn't get his say on the matter.

I think it's appalling for a woman to make what should be a joint decision on her own. I've even had a woman I used to know tell me "Well WE've got one child and I (meaning just her) have decided to have another one by him. But I'm not going to ask for his agreement to that...I'm just going to get pregnant for a 2nd child and then tell him.....and, at the same time, tell him we're getting divorced".

One of my exes was in that position too - ie his wife made their joint decision on having children on her own (twice!!!) and accordingly I doubt he'll ever trust another woman.

Then there was the male friend who told me - with much laughter accompanying the tale - of how a past girlfriend of the time decided to have a child without anyone's agreement and came to him to tell him he was going to be a father and expecting help from him. His reply was "The impossible does happen then does it? As I'm sterilised - so go and try that trick on your other boyfriend - as it must be from him and you just picked the 'better bet' person to go to and say he was the father". Not surprisingly - she got chucked at that point.

I've certainly even known a younger woman recently that decided to get pregnant on her own and then tell the poor mug she set up as unwitting sperm donor he'd become a father again. That baby didn't happen in the event after all - the pregnancy did...but it was ended (I think she realised making a joint decision on her own like that had not been her wisest decision).

If only there was something these men could use that would mean the woman they're having sex with wouldn't get pregnant..

AGAA4

Birth is not a verb and birthing as used in birthing stool is an adjective.

You birthed my balloon.

Not worth arguing about so I’ll leave you to it CA.

So - for those who don't like the phrase "We're pregnant" - what words do you use to convey "Its a joint decision - he decided as well as me. We're both happy about it"? Given that there are still a substantial number of pregnancies where he was not given his say about whether it was going to happen or no?

ferry23

Along with "We're pregnant"

My absolute bugbear too. Being pregnant means you have to be able to give birth, I've yet to see a man able to do it.

An erstwhile brother. Someone thought they'd complain erstwhile is old-fashioned. Well back to erstwhile it is then. Can't please all the people all the time - so I'll just please myself then (after all it's my word I'm using).

Erstwhile = his bad behaviour caused me to kick him out of my life.

What is a former brother?

Language changes over time. My midwife daughter does not ‘deliver’ babies, she ‘catches’ them.

win

kircubbin2000

I don't remember ever trying or deciding to become pregnant. It just happened without any discussion in those days.

Not to me it did not, surely it is your duty not to let its happen until you can afford a child and want one. I know accidents can happen but even in those days you had a choice. I do also understand that some women were totally uneducated on these matters are you saying you were one of those?

Yep..... (bar my mothers two accidents)....but yep...

Though I wasn't exactly joking when I used to comment on "My body wouldnt have dared to pull that stunt on me...I think it would have 'known' what I might have done (ie other than have an abortion obviously and it probably wanted to have another 60 years or whatever life it's due for". There is absolutely NO way I will let my body make decisions instead of me (the person living in it).

Win..
I find your comment a little sanctimonious to say the least!

kircubbin2000

I don't remember ever trying or deciding to become pregnant. It just happened without any discussion in those days.

Or rather - what efforts there were didnt work. They must have helped to some extent - as I was born 2 years after my parents got married and my former brother 4 years after me. But the fact they had any children at all was down to "It wasnt the 1970s onward then...". Or, as my mother put it, she found a tactful way of saying it along the lines of "Medicine wasnt what it is now"....which I interpreted as "We didnt have The Pill then - or I'd have been on it and you wouldnt have been born". Errr....thanks...mother....and just as well I'd realised that fact anyway...before being told I was a "mistake".

So she decided - but contraception/abortion wasnt what it became.

I decided (in the 1970s) and that was that - not so much as a "pregnancy scare" then - unless I counted the fact that when I went to open the next packet of The Pill the inefficient chemist had given me the wrong brand!!!!! I was obviously a very different person to what I am now - as they got away with that without me storming over and demanding to see the person in charge at once about them having an inefficient assistant on something so important as that. I made sure I got the subsequent packets in plenty of time and opened them immediately after that - in case of further inefficiency on their part.