Where or were?

Kircubbin2000 - the thing that makes me shudder is "should of" rather than "should have". So many write it but even worse is when someone on TV pronounces it that way.

Doodledog - very interesting. I suppose it is the same with any patois version of a language.

I have noticed on our village facebook the many grammatical errors. ‘ I done it’, ‘she gived it me ’ are examples seen this week.
I am the oldest (ancient!) member of our book group and we take it in turns to choose a book. My choice is often a book written decades ago and the group have found it a difficult read as there were too many new or long words. They are not by any means an under educated lot, just decades younger than me! I have read that the breadth of vocabulary in modern books is much diminished. I must try to find the statistics on ithis.

My mother always dinned into me to pronounce the 'h' in words like 'where', 'when' etc. - so never any confusion.

WithNobsOnIt

It is sad to hear that Teachers are still trotting this excuse out for poor spelling and comprehension.

This creativity thing has been going since the Sixties.

I remember English Grammar being taken off the Syllabus at the school l attended in 1966.

Yes, and this was a Grammar School

A lot of younger people think it is cool to sound thick and ignorant.
Plus, there is a lot of inverted snobbery and class tourism mixed in with this.

As a matter of interest. I have just Googled the following about the BBC.

Yes, the BBC still maintains a specialized Pronunciation Unit (or Pronunciation Research Unit) staffed by linguists. They advise BBC broadcasters and independent production companies on the correct pronunciation of names, words, and places in any language to ensure accuracy, particularly for newsreaders.

YOU COULD HAVE FOOLED ME.
GOD HELP US!

The National Literacy Strategy was launched in 1997 and through the development of the National Curriculum has completely changed English teaching from the previous decades.
Did anyone bother to look at the Key Stage 2 grammar test that I posted at 14:56?
Did everyone get all 50 questions right?

Hope this link works. The ultimate in poor pronunciation. From Shooting Stars.

Take a look at this video, 'vic reeves in the club style' share.google/89rJtKr1tHyt4ENoU

Sometimes it’s not the knowing whether the correct word is
‘ where ‘ or ‘ were ‘, it’s the pronunciation. I know a number of people who don’t seem to know how to pronounce the ‘ wh ‘ sound. As an early years teacher, I ensured that the pupils learned to make the ‘ blowing ‘ sound of ‘ wh ‘. They would always have been corrected if they made it sound like ‘ w ‘. Many people say wen and were for when and where, though I wonder if it’s less common here in Scotland.

I wonder how people here would get on with Jamaican English. They would probably say it was ungrammatical. It is a powerful dialect, growing in London among young people of all backgrounds. It's grammar is more analytic than the grammar of the standard written dialect of English taught in schools. Perhaps people would describe it as slang. A pejorative term. One person's knowledge is another person's ignorance. Grammer is a tool for describing languages rather than policing them.

grannybuy

Sometimes it’s not the knowing whether the correct word is
‘ where ‘ or ‘ were ‘, it’s the pronunciation. I know a number of people who don’t seem to know how to pronounce the ‘ wh ‘ sound. As an early years teacher, I ensured that the pupils learned to make the ‘ blowing ‘ sound of ‘ wh ‘. They would always have been corrected if they made it sound like ‘ w ‘. Many people say wen and were for when and where, though I wonder if it’s less common here in Scotland.

According to Google, Scottish English speakers generally pronounce the "wh" with a strong 'h' sound (technically a voiceless labial-velar fricative /ʍ/).
I think it was originally hwh, but changed for some speakers in Middle English.
You could ask your Primary School age grandchildren about the digraph wh. 😊

What is a ‘fronted adverbial’? I’ve never heard of it. Hadn’t heard of ‘parsing’ either, but I went to a Grammar School and I like to think I speak English properly, albeit with a Northern accent. Writing, I have to check and recheck though.

Jockytaff

Kircubbin2000 - the thing that makes me shudder is "should of" rather than "should have". So many write it but even worse is when someone on TV pronounces it that way.

That's the one that annoys me the most too!
When my kids were at primary school I went in twice a week to listen to the children reading. At one point I noticed a mistake both my children's teachers had made. They were at a CoE primary and had been on a visit to the chuch. My daughter had written 'alter' instead of 'altar' in a piece on display and when I asked her about it she said she'd spelt it correctly but the teacher had told her to change it! My son's classroom also had a display with it spelt incorrectly! One of my daughter's classmates asked me about it and I told her which was correct and said "But don't worry, we can alter it!" She understood after that!

Totally different words, I have never heard them mixed up.

JennyCee

What is a ‘fronted adverbial’? I’ve never heard of it. Hadn’t heard of ‘parsing’ either, but I went to a Grammar School and I like to think I speak English properly, albeit with a Northern accent. Writing, I have to check and recheck though.

These are examples from BBC Bitesize.

"A fronted adverbial is when the adverbial word or phrase is moved to the front of the sentence, before the verb.
Earlier today, I discovered fronted adverbials.
So here, 'earlier today' is a fronted adverbial.
Here are some more examples.
Calmly, the family sat together and watched a movie.
Like a cheetah, Bill sprinted to the finish."
Hope that is helpful.

I wish other posters on here would recognise that times have changed since the 1970s and 80s and children are taught and tested on grammar and spelling, within a clear framework which is easily accessible on the internet.

Interesting discussion.
I agree with Mamie.. The grammar components at KS1 and KS2 are comprehensive and clearly understandable.

A lot of younger people think it is cool to sound thick and ignorant.
What a load of tosh! It's 2026.

Does anyone else notice that 'underestimated' is being used rather than 'overestimated'? As in 'the amount of rain this winter cannot be underestimated', rather than 'the amount of rain this winter cannot be 'overestimated'. I'm starting to wonder if I'm wrong on this since I hear it on radio 4 and other BBC programmes.

Analysing of sentences is not taught so that pupils learn to speak and write grammatically----that is a secondary spin off.

Analysing compound sentences is for learning how to understand and deconstruct arguments.

Chaitriona

I wonder how people here would get on with Jamaican English. They would probably say it was ungrammatical. It is a powerful dialect, growing in London among young people of all backgrounds. It's grammar is more analytic than the grammar of the standard written dialect of English taught in schools. Perhaps people would describe it as slang. A pejorative term. One person's knowledge is another person's ignorance. Grammer is a tool for describing languages rather than policing them.

I endorse all that, Chaitriona.

MartavTaurus

Interesting discussion.
I agree with Mamie.. The grammar components at KS1 and KS2 are comprehensive and clearly understandable.

A lot of younger people think it is cool to sound thick and ignorant.
What a load of tosh! It's 2026.

Some young people do think it's cool to speak in a certain way, though, I've noticed. It's odd, a kind of jerky patois, it doesn't flow.
One of the Apprentices, Karishma, talks in that kind of way, although she is Surrey born and bred.

Perhaps we should blame rappers!! 😀

Mamie
Did anyone bother to look at the Key Stage 2 grammar test that I posted at 14:56?
Did everyone get all 50 questions right?

Yes and yes.
Although that’s probably because I’ve supported in class and marked SAT practice papers.
The word I was least familiar with? Determiner!

No, but let me drink my coffee first, Mamie!

JamesandJon33

If you come to Wales, hear, ear, here and year are all pronounced the same . Yer

😁

The absolute "treasure" is: should have and should of. As seen on these pages. (IS used advisedly)

Mollygo

Mamie
Did anyone bother to look at the Key Stage 2 grammar test that I posted at 14:56?
Did everyone get all 50 questions right?

Yes and yes.
Although that’s probably because I’ve supported in class and marked SAT practice papers.
The word I was least familiar with? Determiner!

Well done! ⭐️ ⭐️

But is familiarising children with techniques to recognise difficult grammar just teaching monkeys tricks?
It's how they apply these skills that is important.

I'm only asking because I don't know. We always declined to do SATS tests because we felt they served little purpose.

Did anyone bother to look at the Key Stage 2 grammar test that I posted at 14:56?
Did everyone get all 50 questions right?

How do we know? The answers weren't attached, so I marked myself as I went along! 99%!
Only one thing puzzled me and that was the prefix for the three words - which is probably easy.

The other thing to note was that I must not over-think the questions, eg the one about the log. I thought that I would be more likely to find woodlice under the log than other creatures, particularly if the wood was rotting 😁

Yes, the answer is obvious 😁