Where or were?

Doodledog

JamesandJon33

Do school children learn grammar any more? Parsing, précis, clauses etc.

I don't think it is about what young people are taught. I am in a few local history groups online, and the majority of members are older than me (maybe in their 80s and above) and their spelling, grammar and sentence structure are often 'interesting'. Many people left school very early when those people were young though, so the chances of their having parsed sentences and declined verbs are slim - most people were streamed at eleven and taught what they needed to know in oder to get a job at 14. That doesn't impact on the validity of what they have to say, though, and it doesn't mean that those who were taught about the subjunctive or whatever have more interesting things to say, however correctly they might express it.

There was also a period where things such as parsing and formal grammar were discarded, and this had a knock-on effect, as a whole generation of teachers had little or no knowledge of them, so couldn't pass on what they didn't know. I taught university students who didn't know fairly basic grammar until they were told. Again, it didn't make them less able - none of us know what we haven't been taught. Those people will be in their 30s and 40s now.

Younger people are much more likely to be taught grammar nowadays, and stay in education for longer than ever before, so yes - schoolchildren are taught grammar - in a lot of cases probably to a higher standard than many of their parents and/or grandparents.

I wonder why the members joined online local history groups. have the groups in question ever sent out a searching questionnaire as to why they joined?

Witzend

JamesandJon33

Do school children learn grammar any more? Parsing, précis, clauses etc.

IMO they certainly do learn grammar, and it seems a bit more complicated than when I was at primary stage. Last weekend we were going through some SATS practice tests with Gdd1, who’s coming up to 11, and I remember in particular questions about ‘determiners’ (a term I wasn’t familiar with despite having studied several languages and taught EFL) and adverbial phrases.

I was particularly pleased to see questions about when and where to put an apostrophe!

She attends a C of E state primary, in case anyone’s wondering.

Yes, Other Granny and I went through some with DGD about 3 years ago and some of the terms were unfamiliar.

Affect and effect also confuses many.

Allira my parents were in a similar position because of financial restraints. Each had a good job and their written English was very good, My mother was Irish, my father Scottish.

Grammar was hammered into me, I would never say I could of.

Not a problem for those brought up in Scotland, where we do not pronounce where and were alike! We do pronounce where and wear quite similarly, but my generation know the difference when writing.

If in doubt, say the words aloud.

I wonder why the members joined online local history groups. have the groups in question ever sent out a searching questionnaire as to why they joined?
I doubt it - why would they care? All members are welcome whyever they want to join.

I assume they joined for the same reasons as me - an interest in local history 😀. There is also an element of remembering the area as it was (lots of rose coloured glasses) and thinking about life in their youth. Why do you think their reasons for joining matter enough for a searching questionnaire?

keepingquiet

kircubbin2000

What's the quiz?

It's called Twenty Questions on Spotify. He did it again today- saying the word 'navigation' with a soft g, as a j sound. He isn't a child either, over 40 years old. Now I listen just to see which words he gets wrong!

That's interesting, I learnt a lot of words by reading them first (partly because of my hearing & partly quite an isolated childhood). It does mean you pronounce things strangely because you don't hear it first.
I imagine this is true also of people who's first language isn't english & have picked up a lot of their vocabulary by reading.
Makes me wonder if the producer is in either of these categories.

*whose

Doodledog

*I wonder why the members joined online local history groups. have the groups in question ever sent out a searching questionnaire as to why they joined?*
I doubt it - why would they care? All members are welcome whyever they want to join.

I assume they joined for the same reasons as me - an interest in local history 😀. There is also an element of remembering the area as it was (lots of rose coloured glasses) and thinking about life in their youth. Why do you think their reasons for joining matter enough for a searching questionnaire?

* special interest e.g. cup and ring markings, e.g. historical land use

*any port in a storm socialising

* Friend , relative , employer etc .was attending

* 'local history ' means no further ago than e.g. 1930s or wartime.

* local history is limited to castle, stately home , abbey, or parish church i.e. notable buildings

* curiosity about historical land use in local area ---maybe where their house is built

Yes, they are possible reasons, but why does it matter? They are online groups for all comers. Anyone can post about the things that interest them.

Doodledog

Yes, they are possible reasons, but why does it matter? They are online groups for all comers. Anyone can post about the things that interest them.

Sure!

It's simply that I am curious about what motivates human behaviours. I am not an anthropologist but I have vague leanings that way.

Caleo

Doodledog

Yes, they are possible reasons, but why does it matter? They are online groups for all comers. Anyone can post about the things that interest them.

Sure!

It's simply that I am curious about what motivates human behaviours. I am not an anthropologist but I have vague leanings that way.

Also, Doodledog, I myself am interested in what I think of as 'local history ', and I would enjoy meeting others with the same sort of interest -- historical land usage mostly, whereas castles and stately homes don't interest me except as signs of how people in former times lived and believed.

Apologies for straying from the topic.I'll stop it now.

It’s fine by me😀. I just wondered at the idea of a searching questionnaire. As I say, I think a lot of it is about reminiscing - these are not academic groups and membership is not limited at all.

Doodledog

It’s fine by me😀. I just wondered at the idea of a searching questionnaire. As I say, I think a lot of it is about reminiscing - these are not academic groups and membership is not limited at all.

"These are not academic groups". But groups don;t have to be professional academics to have a highish level of intellectual curiosity or expertise. I find one of the problems about engaging with online groups is the organiser does not say what level the discussions are at.

I used to visit online philosophy groups regularly until the groups folded. This was largely for social reasons as the general level was low. and I learned almost nothing from them.

I didn't suggest for a minute that they should be at a high academic level .

They are local groups - called things like 'Hometown Past and Present'. Some members write long posts about historical events in the area, and others ask if anyone remembers Ethel and Bob who lived in Acacia Avenue in the 40s.

My comment was not about the level of historical knowledge, but about the standard of English Language, in response to a post asking about schools not teaching parsing and grammar these days.

Which was my question. At ‘O’ level we did English Literature and separately English Language. I just wondered if it was the same these days, as younger people’s speech is often very ungrammatical.

JamesandJon33

Which was my question. At ‘O’ level we did English Literature and separately English Language. I just wondered if it was the same these days, as younger people’s speech is often very ungrammatical.

Communications can be "ungrammatical" and still be explicit or creative.

I think schools teach creative writing, and creative speech and drama separately from explicit language. Each language register has it uses, and children need to be able to use both explicit language (i.e. "grammatical" language) and creative or everyday language.

Modern children are taught grammar, with concepts such as fronted adverbials and the like. My children were taught parts of speech, clauses and sentence structure 25-30 years ago, and I had lessons in parsing sentences in the 70s.

My own contributions on this thread are about rejecting the idea that younger people are somehow 'inferior' (for want of a better term) to older ones when it comes to English Language, as in my experience there are plenty of examples of older people whose grasp of relatively basic English is lacking. It's not a generation thing, or an intelligence thing*, it comes down to education, and modern children are in education for far longer than many older ones were. I think it is a mistake to assume that young people's English is not as good as that of older generations.

*As far back as the 60s, Labov (a sociolinguist) studied speech patterns of children in disadvantaged areas (specifically Harlem and areas with high concentrations of Puerto Rican Americans), and found that their speech patterns, whilst noticeably different from 'Standard American' were equally rules-bound and complex - not 'inferior' at all. Subsequent studies have reinforced his findings with different social groups. Standard speech patterns are perceived as having higher status, but that is arbitrary and nothing to do with being intrinsically 'better' or more complex than other ones.

JamesandJon33

Do school children learn grammar any more? Parsing, précis, clauses etc.

If only! I loved doing the underlining. Verbs red, nouns green and curly upside-down ss for conjunctions. Then breaking a para down into clauses. A whole generation didn't do it and so today's teachers have piled into it with a while lot of totally unnecessary and confusing jargon, making it seem far more difficult than it actually is. Poor kids.

JamesandJon33

Do school children learn grammar any more? Parsing, précis, clauses etc.

Yes they do. Have a look at the National Curriculum for English.
They even learn about fronted adverbials at Key Stage 2.
Try the test for 10/11 year olds.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/682dbbc6baff3dab99775152/2025_KS2_English_GPS_Paper1_questions.pdf

.

Petra

You don't use apostrophes either!!

(Now THAT makes ME shout!)
.
.

Caleo

RosiesMawagain

Well it’s obvious, they’re totally different words.
Were is the past tense of are and where indicates place eg «where are my glasses? They are not where they were» 🤣

Like Wales and whales 🤣🤣🤣

My anglicised sons laugh at my Scottish pronunciation that aspirates whales but not Wales.

I aspirate the h in where, when and why, and I tell 'my' y4s if they say it correctly they will spell it correctly too.

We're and they're seems to go unnoticed too. Is that because the ' is on the special character's screen on phones?

The common one I see all the time is there for their.

We were taught that where was a ‘blow’ sound and that differentiated it from were. More like fware.

It is sad to hear that Teachers are still trotting this excuse out for poor spelling and comprehension.

This creativity thing has been going since the Sixties.

I remember English Grammar being taken off the Syllabus at the school l attended in 1966.

Yes, and this was a Grammar School

A lot of younger people think it is cool to sound thick and ignorant.
Plus, there is a lot of inverted snobbery and class tourism mixed in with this.

As a matter of interest. I have just Googled the following about the BBC.

Yes, the BBC still maintains a specialized Pronunciation Unit (or Pronunciation Research Unit) staffed by linguists. They advise BBC broadcasters and independent production companies on the correct pronunciation of names, words, and places in any language to ensure accuracy, particularly for newsreaders.

YOU COULD HAVE FOOLED ME.
GOD HELP US!

If you come to Wales, hear, ear, here and year are all pronounced the same . Yer